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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:36 am
@genoves,
What are you trying to say, because I agree people purchased homes they couldn't afford. We can blame the lending institutions as well as the consumer, but that's all in the past; it's done. The question is, what is the best solution for the current mess if not increasing credit?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:40 am
@genoves,
It's interesting to not how you conservatives blame everything on Clinton even though Bush was the "president" for the past eight years. All of you have blinders on, and trying to discuss anything with a modicum of intelligence is useless. I blame the president, congress, the lending institutions, the consumers, and those MBAs who created those mortgage derivatives - most of which occurred during the past eight years. They sat by and let it "happen."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:43 am
@genoves,
That's not a solution; you're just rehashing the obvious.

Of coarse, Bush doesn't have the brains to understand what slick Willy did during his eight years in office. Bush never took responsibility or admitted any mistake. Your continued support of Bush tells me you are as ignorant as Bush.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:45 am
@genoves,
genoves wrote:
Quote:
Look up the role of the esteemed Barney Frank and Senator Dodd in their dealings with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. You will learn something.


Guess who the president was during the past eight years; he was the man in charge of our country. You might learn something if you understood the term "the buck stops here."
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:52 am
@cicerone imposter,
c.i. wrote :

Quote:
The question is, what is the best solution for the current mess if not increasing credit?


"someone" (GRIN) would probably want us to live in cardboard boxes and line up at a soup kitchen - that might make him happy .
take care , c.i. !
hbg

ps by writing "someone" , i hope "nobody" will feel offended or even addressed (GRIN)
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:53 am
@genoves,
The right likes to blame Carter and Clinton for the subprime crisis. This is wrong. What they did is oppose redlining, which ruled out mortgages based on neighborhood, gender, surname, marital status, etc. Did the right really approve of this? It did not keep an institution from denying mortgages to those not credit worthy.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 11:01 am
@Advocate,
In fact I agree that Frank and Dodd were complicit in the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac problems, but they had absolutely nothing to do with all the bank and other finance company failures. That's the result from the failure of the administration to take control and establish accountability for our "free market" system that the conservatives love to keep free.

They always want their cake and eat it too! Or, they don't understand the meaning of republicanism/conservatism. They always know how to point fingers at others on problems they are a party to.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 11:30 am
@cicerone imposter,
Like the savings and loan debacle of the 70's and 80's, trying to put the blame solely on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac doesn't hold much water. How much lying and sin of omission did the financial institution indulge in to sell them shaky mortgages they could not back up? How quickly the Enron, Arthur Anderson, et al, crooked dealings have left the country's memory. There was suppose to be more scrutiny on financial statements, especially using "creative accounting" to give trumped up figures and make them look good. Do a little research and all that "scrutiny" which involved CEO's and Presidents of corporations to sign off on their financial statements is as lame as Fester on Gunsmoke. The scrutiny on the mortgage market was turned off and I blame the Democrats in congress and the senate for not having more balls to confront this gaping black hole. It's not giving me more confidence in politicians, left, right, Democrat, Libertarian, Republican -- there's not a great deal of difference, only empty ideological rhetoric. I am enthused about Obama -- changing the ethics policy on lobbiest who are a large part of the financial meltdown is a good first move. Just listening to a crooked man can rub off.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 11:34 am
@Lightwizard,
Yup, conservatives like to preach their conservative meme of "less government intrusion," but when it comes time to take responsibility, they want to blame everything on the previous administration. Go figure.
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genoves
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:14 pm
@Advocate,
Dear Advocate: Redlining was excoriated by the left wing as a racist plot against minorities. That is a crock. Real Estate Agents and Finance companies are and were in the business to make money. If someone had the proper financing they could buy a home. The proof is easy to find. Take almost any affluent area in the USA and minorities will be found living there. They were able to afford the mortgages.

Do you know that in many cities, people were allowed to purchase homes with no money down and, in many instances, there was no check done to see whether the information given by the buyer concerning source of income and/or amount of income.

Soon, scholars will begin to gather evidence about this debacle. Then we will see the truth. We will find out how many people went into a home without almost any kind of financial backup. We will find out who these people are.

We will find out how many of them did not give the proper information to the agencies. We will get the breakdown with regard to status--eg. race, maritial status.

The problem was greed. Greed on the part of those who went into homes they should never have bought in the first place because they could not afford to pay a mortgage if it rose.

Greed on the part of the finance companies who looked the other way when the buyers did not full documentation as to their financial status.

Greed on the part of the large banks who bought in to what seemed to be a good deal--repurchase of thousands of mortgages.

Now, Advocate,banks are NOT loaning money except to those whose credit is impeccable. That should have been the case all along.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:18 pm
@genoves,
Many reporters and "scholars" have already identified the subprime mortgage problems. Where have you been this past year?
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:20 pm
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard is correct. He correctly notes that the Democrats took over the Congress in 2006. They had plenty of time to tighten the screws. Lightwizard is also correct when he notes that President Obama is changing the ethics policy on lobbyists. He should forbid any lobbying of any kind. However, I fear that he will encounter fierce resistance from both Republicans and Democrats who will not have the money to fund their campaigns.

It will be interesting to see whether lobbying is banned from DC. We will know in 2010 when the mid term elections come up.
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Really? Do you have some links? Leave the NY Times and the Washington Post out of the list, please.

And, if you presume to make a correction based on what someone has left out, do not be so sloppy as to forget to give a source.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:23 pm
@genoves,
You're not so smart; the democrats may have taken over congress in 2006, but you probably lack the knowledge about how congress works. Learn a little bit about "filibuster" before you blame the democrats for their inability to pass legislation during the past two years.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:23 pm
@genoves,
Lightwizard didn't note that because it is incorrect. Democrats took control of Congress in 2007, not 2006.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:25 pm
@genoves,
Why should I leave out the NYT and Washington Post? Just because you say so? ROFLMAO

You must prove what they say to be false by each article; not that all their articles are wrong.

Where did you learn logic? LOL
genoves
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Well, then, cite them, but don't think I will believe your absurdities unless you have evidence or documentation.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Well, then, quote the Boston Globe or the LA Times, or anything not owned by Murdoch -- of course you could quote Bill O'Reilly who Murdoch is just barely tolerating. You can't just state that you can't quote or link to a source without prooving the facts they are reporting are false as CI points out -- it doesn't matter what their editorial interpretations are, I don't find the bias intrusive in the news reporting, not even close to Pox News (or Fixed News as Keith Olberman says), especially since Colmes told Hannity he's had it with Pox. Before anyone goes off about MSNBC, it's also biased editorially but not in actual news reporting. Besides, Olberman and Maddow, the two top rated shows who consistantly are now outrating both Hannity and O'Reilly, are experts at satirical skeptical humor while those other guys are as deadpan as a grounded, rotting flounder.

I realize that the Democrats in Congress and the Senate were playing a waiting game to get their team in -- that's typical politics to not do any controversial orchestrations the talking heads can blather about and influence to voters (not solely, as the low ratings of performance of our legislature comes from many different places, including factually reported news).

BTW, I check Pox News fairly regularly to see what their doing with their crayons to color up the news. I'd wish they used brighter, more vivid colors than all Ochre and Military Olive Drab.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:44 pm
@genoves,
Basically, what you say is correct. However, you don't support your contention that Carter and Clinton, in their opposition to redlineing, somehow are partly responsible for the subprime mess. Are you not also opposed to redlining?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:46 pm
@genoves,
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis

From CNNMoney:
Quote:
Subprime crisis: A timeline
Hints of turmoil in the subprime mortgage market began to surface less than 2 years ago.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The subprime mortgage meltdown and resulting rippling repercussions have a brief, but dramatic, history.

Feb. 7, 2007 - HSBC announces it will see larger than anticipated losses from rising defaults of subprime mortgages in the United States, the first major bank to make an announcement about rising losses in the sector. While the announcement gets little attention at the time, subprime mortgages soon become a watch word along Wall Street and in financial news.

April 2, 2007 - New Century Financial, one of the nation's largest subprime mortgage lenders files for bankruptcy court protections, cutting 3,200 jobs, or 54% of its remaining work force that had already been scaled back in previous weeks as it stopped accepting new loans.

June 2007 - Two hedge funds run by Bear Stearns that had large holdings of subprime mortgages run into large losses and are forced to dump assets, with the trouble spreading with major Wall Street firms such as Merrill Lynch (MER, Fortune 500), JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500), Citigroup (C, Fortune 500) and Goldman Sachs (GS, Fortune 500) which had loaned the firm money.

Sept. 18, 2007 - The Federal Reserve starts cutting interest rates, citing the credit crunch on Wall Street and in the broad economy. The nation's central bank will make cuts at seven straight meetings, including one emergency meeting, before it pauses. It also agrees to start loaning money directly to Wall Street firms, rather than only to commercial banks, and to accept troubled mortgage-backed securities as collateral.

July 11, 2008 - The FDIC takes over IndyMac, a California bank that had been one of the leading lenders who made home loans to people who did not provide proof of their income. The failure may turn out to be the most expensive in U.S. history, but FDIC warns that more bank failures lay ahead.

March 16, 2008 - JPMorgan Chase & Co. acquires troubled Wall Street firm Bear Stearns, in a deal engineered by the Federal Reserve, which agrees to provide up to $29 billion in financing to cover potential Bear Stearns losses that JPMorgan agrees to assume.

Sept. 6, 2008 - Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson announces a takeover of Fannie Mae (FNM, Fortune 500) and Freddie Mac (FRE, Fortune 500), putting the government in charge of the twin mortgage giants that own or back more than $5 trillion in mortgages. The Treasury Department agrees to provide up to $200 billion in loans to the cash-starved firms that are crucial sources of mortgage funding for banks and other home lenders.

Sept. 15, 2008 - Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500) agrees to acquire Merrill Lynch, in a deal joining one of the nation's largest banks with one of the its largest brokerage firms, for up to $50 billion. Deal comes after talks to have Bank of America buy Lehman Brothers, another money-losing Wall Street firm, fall through. Unable to find a buyer, Lehman Brothers files for bankruptcy court protection.


From the Wall Street Journal, March 16, 2007:
Quote:
But, as is often the case, there is disagreement among the economists about the risks that the subprime market poses to the overall U.S. economy.

"Mortgage credit-quality problems go well beyond the subprime sector," wrote Jan Hatzius, chief U.S. economist at Goldman Sachs in New York, in a research note. "The underlying problem is not the subprime market per se, but the reset of large quantities of adjustable-rate debt -- some of which is classified as subprime some as prime -- to higher interest rates in an environment of flat or falling house prices in most of the United States."

Mr. Hatzius notes that the so-called teaser rate, or low initial rate on adjustable-rate mortgages, expires sooner for subprime mortgages. This implies that mortgage-holders with prime ARMs may come to experience the same woes currently making waves in the subprime sector.

The extent of any spillover from subprime to the broader housing market remains unclear. "You can tell a lot of scary stories," said Richard DeKaser of National City Corp., "but they're not broadly accurate. We're still talking about a small segment of the nation's homes that are affected." According to the American Housing Survey for 2005, the most recent date for which data are available, 33% of all homes are owned outright and 57% have traditional mortgages, leaving just 10% potentially affected by ARM woes.

The subprime concerns are also likely to weigh on prices, according to Mr. Lonski. "Home sellers will be forced to accept lower prices in the spring. The subprime issue reinforces that home prices would be subject to price recession, creating an expectation of lower prices among buyers."

Economists' expectations for home prices dropped from the previous survey. On average, they see a 0.77% decline in prices, measured by the government's Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight index, in 2007, compared with their forecast in a survey last month for a 0.44% decline. Of the 55 economists who answered the question, 34 predicted prices will be flat or will decline. The index, which tracks price changes in repeat sales or refinancings on the same properties, has never posted a year-to-year decline.
About the Survey

The Wall Street Journal surveys a group of 60 economists throughout the year. Broad surveys on more than 10 major economic indicators are conducted semiannually, at midyear and at year-end. Between each semiannual survey, four monthly updates are conducted for the most closely watched forecasts. This is the monthly survey for March. For prior installments of the semiannual and monthly surveys, see: WSJ.com/Economists.

The economists were split on whether regulators should have acted sooner in the subprime mortgage market. Twenty-eight of the respondents said "yes," while 24 said "no." Robert DiClemente of Citigroup contended that the problem wasn't centered on regulated institutions.

But some economists put part of the blame on the Federal Reserve. "Was it necessary to cut the fed funds rate to 1%, supercharging the housing recovery?" said Mr. Lonski. The June 2003 move, which ended a three-year cycle of rate cuts, was aimed at fostering economic growth and contributed to continued low mortgage rates.

Three-quarters of the economists " 40 of 54 who responded -- said they believe interest rates would be at the same level today if Mr. Greenspan were still chairman of the Fed instead of Ben Bernanke. Nine said rates would be lower now, while five said rates would be higher now.

Mr. Greenspan has roiled the markets this month with his prediction that slowing growth in corporate profit margins means that the risk of recession is greater than many believe. Amid the stir Mr. Greenspan caused, about a quarter of the economists said he should refrain from making public comments about the economy, while the rest said he should speak his mind. "I'd prefer more Greenspan commentary, not less," said Bruce Kasman at JP Morgan Chase. The economists were about evenly split on his assessment of profit margins.


From the NYT:
Quote:
February 12, 2008
Mortgage Crisis Spreads Past Subprime Loans
By VIKAS BAJAJ and LOUISE STORY

The credit crisis is no longer just a subprime mortgage problem.

As home prices fall and banks tighten lending standards, people with good, or prime, credit histories are falling behind on their payments for home loans, auto loans and credit cards at a quickening pace, according to industry data and economists.

The rise in prime delinquencies, while less severe than the one in the subprime market, nonetheless poses a threat to the battered housing market and weakening economy, which some specialists say is in a recession or headed for one.

Until recently, people with good credit, who tend to pay their bills on time and manage their finances well, were viewed as a bulwark against the economic strains posed by rising defaults among borrowers with blemished, or subprime, credit.

“This collapse in housing value is sucking in all borrowers,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com.

Like subprime mortgages, many prime loans made in recent years allowed borrowers to pay less initially and face higher adjustable payments a few years later. As long as home prices were rising, these borrowers could refinance their loans or sell their properties to pay off their mortgages. But now, with prices falling and lenders clamping down, homeowners with solid credit are starting to come under the same financial stress as those with subprime credit.

“Subprime was a symptom of the problem,” said James F. Keegan, a bond portfolio manager at American Century Investments, a mutual fund company. “The problem was we had a debt or credit bubble.”

The bursting of that bubble has led to steep losses across the financial industry. American International Group said on Monday that auditors found it may have understated losses on complex financial instruments linked to mortgages and corporate loans.
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