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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 05:33 pm
@realjohnboy,
Bush considering 'orderly' auto bankruptcy
By JENNIFER LOVEN, AP White House Correspondent Jennifer Loven, Ap White House Correspondent
18 mins ago

WASHINGTON " The Bush administration is looking at "orderly" bankruptcy as a possible way to deal with the desperately ailing U.S. auto industry, the White House said Thursday as carmakers readied more plant closings and a half million new jobless claims underscored the deteriorating national economy.

With General Motors, Chrysler and the rest of Detroit anxiously awaiting a White House decision on billions of dollars in emergency federal loans, press secretary Dana Perino said it wasn't simply a choice between government rescue and the disastrous collapse of a major industry.

"There's an orderly way to do bankruptcies that provides for more of a soft landing," she said. "I think that's what we would be talking about."
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 06:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
DJIA fell another 219 points (2.49 %) to 8,604 today - unfortunately not much above the 8,000 line .

the "big three" on the ropes , canada's nortel (once the big one) now down to about 50 cents from $100+ plus , manufaturing down , oil down , credit tight - the only things UP seem to be bankruptcies and repos .

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

just for a laugh (or a cry) look at this from the NYT - june 26 , 2008 - not quite 6 months ago . the DJ had fallen to the 5 year trendline line .
the writer expected a "bounce" - though he admitted "still scary stuff " .
i wonder if his comments might be a bit different today .

note the entry : "starting to crack ? " on the right of chart .

"cracked" the wrong way , i guess .
hbg

Quote:
Thursday, June 26, 2008
Dow Jones Lingering Around 5 Year Trend Line
Over on his site, Stewie has a great 5 year chart of the Dow Jones up. As he illustrates, we're right on the cusp of breaking convincingly through a major long-term trendline. Stochastics and various other signals are pointing to oversold so we should see some sort of a bounce here. But, still, scary stuff. I'll let the chart do the rest of the talking:


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9MYixPWxtF0/SGFMDd7W21I/AAAAAAAAADQ/YO7R8bEq9Ps/s1600/djia.png
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 08:00 pm
@hamburger,
hbg, We've known for a while now that the stock market cannot sustain current levels; not while jobs are being lost by the hundreds of thousands, homes lost, and many more people are surviving on the dole. The biggest problem is that all the infusion of cash by the government will not help create jobs in what should now be the number one priority. It's only helping the wealthy keep their assets while forgetting the middle class. I look at the market hitting below 8,000 within the next month or so. There is no way the market players could have seen what continues to be bad news for everybody - and we haven't seen the bottom yet. This holiday season is going to be the worst in memory for most of us.

When it does go below 8,000, I'll be looking at some bottom to buy back some funds. I believe the US economy will have some improvement from Obama's choice for his administration, but it's going to be a long haul.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 08:01 pm
@hamburger,
I think you guys have the focus wrong....the big three problem will likely be solved by government supported bankruptcy. The us auto market will shrink at least 15% for the foreseeable future, and the American makers will lose market share, so I expect the big three to shrink about 30% over the next 5 years. In the big picture this is not horrible, unless you personally are connected to the industry.

The much bigger problem is the Madoff Ponzi scheme, and the fact that it was never discovered. $50 billion in losses is going to hurt bad, but far worse is the Chinese for instance losing faith in America's ability and willingness to follow safe and sane practices with the money they lend us. I saw someplace where America is now looking at a swing from a GDP of +7% of earnings to -3% as we bust the financial sector bubble and repair the damage. If we have to give up our global charge cards and stop spending our kid's money the swing is going to be much worse. A new normal of 10% shrinkage of GDP is pretty damn huge already, I would hate to see what happens if our lenders decide we are no longer worthy of credit.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 08:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
All that infusion of cash into the banks have not helped many people. The feds are now looking at limiting what card companies can do to increase interest rates, but that won't become effective until July of 2010.

The higher ups of all those companies that got taxpayer bailout monies are celebrating with huge bonusses while the middle class takes it on the chin.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 08:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
did you see where the vary same companies that the taxpayers just handed hundreds of billions of dollars to, and took over the risk on trillions of their assets, said that as a result of the new law they will be "forced" to further cut lines of credit, terminate accounts, and raise rates? Lovely.....
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 08:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
I think your 1st paragraph, hamburger, is correct and suggests why the Bush White House is dragging its feet on a full-fledged bailout of a big 3 auto industry that will be swimming in red ink for years.
Ah, the Madoff thing. I would hate to be an SEC official once Congress gets back in session and opens hearings on this. I heard today that warning flags went up more than a decade ago about him (including a story in Barron's) but no one bothered to look at his operation. You are absolutely correct that the U.S. is losing the confidence of overseas investors. We are looking like a 3rd world country where corruption is rampant.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 09:08 pm
@realjohnboy,
Chris Cox dropped the ball big time as well. Bad job.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 09:09 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
Ah, the Madoff thing. I would hate to be an SEC official once Congress gets back in session and opens hearings on this. I heard today that warning flags went up more than a decade ago about him (including a story in Barron's) but no one bothered to look at his operation. You are absolutely correct that the U.S. is losing the confidence of overseas investors. We are looking like a 3rd world country where corruption is rampant.


Oh, like that for ten years on and off one of the major players in the industry told the SEC that he was positive that Madoff was running a Ponzi Scheme? Like the claims made by Madoff for how he made his money were theoretically impossible?....those "warning flags"?

0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 09:26 pm
the madoff "scandal" reminds me a bit of an episode in an old cosby show .
the main characters were young "kenny" (rudy's schoolfriend) and the teacher played by elaine stritch (?) .
teacher trying to explain : "it is more important what you know than who you know (if you want a good job ) " .
kenny ; "my brother says that it's more important who you know than what you know " .
teacher : "whom does your brother know ? " .
kenny : "he doesn't know anyone !!! " .

since "everyone" thought they knew bernie , they happily entrusted him with his money . bernie didn't know much (about investing) , but he knew a lot of people with money (that he was able to fool) .

seems to me that kenny's brother had it right .
hbg

hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 09:34 pm
@hamburger,
bidding you all a good night !


Quote:
An economist's guess is liable to be as good as anybody else's.
Will Rogers


hoping that the fall of the stockmarket was just a bad dream and that tomorrow morning i'l l wake up and see that all my investments have grown "miraculously" .
hbg
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 10:14 am
Quote:
Trade Barriers Toughen With Global Slump
Despite Free-Market Pledge, Many Nations Adopt Restrictive Policies

By Anthony Faiola and Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, December 22, 2008; Page A01

Only a few weeks after world leaders vowed at a Washington summit to reject trade protectionism and adhere to free-market principles as they combat the global financial crisis, a host of nations are already breaking that promise.

Moving to shield battered domestic manufacturers from foreign imports, Indonesia is slapping restrictions on at least 500 products this month, demanding special licenses and new fees on imports. Russia is hiking tariffs on imported cars, poultry and pork. France is launching a state fund to protect French companies from foreign takeovers. Officials in Argentina and Brazil are seeking to raise tariffs on products from imported wine and textiles to leather goods and peaches, according to the World Trade Organization.

The list of countries making access to their markets harder potentially includes the United States, where critics are calling the White House's $17.4 billion bailout of the U.S. auto industry an unfair government subsidy that would put foreign competitors at a disadvantage.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/21/AR2008122102171.html?hpid=topnews

no doubt all of the "experts" are shocked that nations are doing what the experts believe in not in their best interests, but then these are the same idiot "experts" that were convinced that markets react rationally......IE they don't know what they are talking about. Protectionism was very predictable and is inevitable.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 06:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Did they actually have a summit meeting, all flying in in private jets, to agree to reject protectionism? Really!!?

They must either never have read the works of Sir Henry Rider Haggard KBE or are desperate to get away from their spouse at our expense.

God is easier to believe in than free trade.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 06:07 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

We are looking like a 3rd world country where corruption is rampant.


That sounds right, and I think that corruption is most of what makes third world countries be third world countries.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 06:11 pm
@okie,
My company did a large lighting and audio/video installation for Chris Cox. He has the IQ of a ham sandwich, but he's street smart. Tried to cheat me out of sales tax, which wouldn't have gone down well at all with our controller.
Up until then I thought it was the James Edwards and his wife who owned Edwards Cinema and went bankrupt who were the dumbest people I ever did a project for.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 06:37 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
Tried to cheat me out of sales tax, which wouldn't have gone down well at all with our controller.


Perfectly rational under evolutionary principles. Had he succeeded he would have had your money and been able to impress females more than you and thus ensure the continuation of his selfish genes.

Your controller, whatever one of them is, must be imbued with Christian virtues.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2008 07:13 pm
@spendius,
He's married and goes to Rick Warren's church -- that he tried to get me individually to doctor up his invoices to save tax is, plain and simple, tax evasion in this country. He's just lucky my controller or I didn't turn him in. He ended up paying the tax -- but trying for Christians seems to always have some dark, and often illegal pale to it.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 02:53 pm
Quote:
No, that all came After Crisis, a black-is-white, up-is-down world that everyone is still trying to figure out. And that includes the people on Wall Street, at Treasury, at the Fed, at the SEC and so on and so on.

What do we call the New Economy? Semi-nationalization? Crypto-capitalism? Laissez-faire socialism? Sweden?

Whatever it is, it sure came fast. This metamorphosis began with what seemed like isolated crises that could be contained. Bear Stearns. Countrywide. Fannie and Freddie. But each time we were told the disease was being treated, it leapt to another firm, then another, then another. Dosing individual patients with similar symptoms was no longer an option. This was a pandemic, and the government mounted a Manhattan Project-like effort -- over the span of days -- to find a cure.


It came up with a $700 billion plan to buy "toxic assets," one of several terms most Americans had never heard before than have since entered the lexicon, including "credit-default swap," "mortgage-backed security," "LIBOR" and "tranche."

Then Americans heard a different term: "bait and switch," as Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite (R-Fla.) put it in a House hearing. No sooner was Paulson's plan to buy toxic assets approved, than the Treasury secretary said, naw, we're not going to buy toxic assets. We're going to buy actual stakes in banks. Thus began the nationalization of the U.S. economy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/31/AR2008123103108_2.html?hpid=topnews

we socialized the economy with out ever talking about it, without debate. Pretty much did the same thing with invading two countries. Gotta love America's high class democracy.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jan, 2009 06:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
Read Walter Lefeber's An American Age hawk. That will help you clarify matters. Three or four times.

Anybody who thinks they have read a book with one fast read for the purpose of claiming to have read it in cocktail party conversations is having him or herself on. Unless it's a crap book. And who reads crap books.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 01:26 pm
Question, after the federal government has bailed out everybody, the financial houses, the auto manufacturers, the unions really are the recipients over the car companies, the newspapers, uh what else, now the states like the totally failed state of California run by a bunch of liberal Democrats, who is going to bail out the federal government, pray tell?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/01/02/democratic-governors-asking-government-t-bailout-package/
 

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