Where is the US economy headed?

@okie,

But Okie, something did happen to influence it. I linked to that something on the last page.

It blows your 'market dislikes Obama and is going down!' theory out of the water. It was a dumb theory to begin with and you know it.

Cycloptichorn

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@hamburger,

hamburger wrote:

rjb :

that's the way i see it too .
i compare today's economy (not just the U.S. but the world-economy) to a ship or airplane caught in "sustained" turbulence - such as a tsunami .
it doesn't help much at this point to look back trying to figure out how it happened or who might be at fault .
what is important NOW is trying to choose the best course of action to survive the turbulence and eventually try to get to a safe port .
hbg

I disagee with the idea that it doesn't help to look back to figure hout how things happen. In fact, if we do not figure out why things happen in the economy, we cannot fix what went wrong, or duplicate what went right.
That is just basic common sense, and I fail to understand why any logical person would not try to identify what influenced what happened.

It is not that complicated in my opinion. First of all, this is a world market, although there are some veneers of insulation between the economies of various countries, including ours, however as the world becomes closer together through modernization, transportation, and communications, those veneers become peeled away and thinner. Thus, if our cost of production of goods and services are not competitive, we will suffer, plain and simple. The only way to compete is to work harder, smarter, and cheaper, or more efficiently. So there is no magical way to preserve an artificially propped up lifestyle propigated by unions or government mandates. We do not live in a vacuum insulated from the realities of the free market.

Take the auto industry for example, we need to bust the unions, reform how corporations operate to cut down on management abuse, etc. We need to get back to basics, reward work, unleash the ingenuity of private enterprise. I do not look for Obama to believe in this. He will coddle the unions, tell Detroit what to do, etc., and increase government mandates, all of which has destroyed Detroit in the first place.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie, It's true that we must look at the past to see why things happened, but we must also make assumptions about how we can solve current and future problems. Hindsight alone will never work, because the world economy is always in flux, and changes. That's the reason why people with the right kind of education and experience are best to arrive at the best solutions for the future.

Detroit should be allowed to fail and go bankrupt. It doesn't make any sense to bail out the auto companies by the taxpayers who will fund their salaries and benefits including retirement plans when many Americans are doing without.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, It's true that we must look at the past to see why things happened, but we must also make assumptions about how we can solve current and future problems. Hindsight alone will never work, because the world economy is always in flux, and changes. That's the reason why people with the right kind of education and experience are best to arrive at the best solutions for the future.

Detroit should be allowed to fail and go bankrupt. It doesn't make any sense to bail out the auto companies by the taxpayers who will fund their salaries and benefits including retirement plans when many Americans are doing without.

Economies are in a state of flux, but certain principles are eternal. Unless we wish to divorce ourselves from trade and the rest of the world, which would be suicidal, and impossible, I don't see how we can escape the realities of the market. There is no free lunch, and things or wealth do not appear out of thin air.

I agree about Detroit, it should be allowed to fail, however, government should also be held accountable for the things it did, it mandated, it caused, that helped Detroit go broke, and I don't see that happening. Also, unions will never admit their complicity in these failures, never, and Obama is in the tank for unions, so I am not optimistic.

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@okie,

Quote:

government should also be held accountable for the things it did, it mandated, it caused, that helped Detroit go broke, and I don't see that happening

Which things are these, specifically? And please don't say 'mileage standards.' If the auto companies had listened and started making more efficient vehicles a decade ago, instead of now, they wouldn't be in the pickle they are in.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

I see cost of vehicles the biggest problem in Detroit, not the quality or innovation, if the cost per vehicle could have been reduced thousands, by reducing overhead, the pickle they are in would not have occurred, at least to the extent that it has. Unions would be my NO.1 culprit, and government had a big hand in not allowing that cabal to be broken up, I think. After all, the auto industry was not created for their enjoyment and destruction, for them alone, the union cabal I am talking about.

Another huge problem is health insurance carried by employers, a system encouraged, promoted, and virtually ordered by the government. This is also part of the union problem, contracts negotiated that are totally unsustainable.

There are more examples, but these for starters. I know you won't agree, probably, but the truth is not even arguable. And I am not interested therefore in being drawn into an argument, just pointing out the obvious.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

I see cost of vehicles the biggest problem in Detroit, not the quality or innovation, if the cost per vehicle could have been reduced thousands, by reducing overhead, the pickle they are in would not have occurred, at least to the extent that it has. Unions would be my NO.1 culprit, and government had a big hand in not allowing that cabal to be broken up, I think. After all, the auto industry was not created for their enjoyment and destruction, for them alone, the union cabal I am talking about.

Another huge problem is health insurance carried by employers, a system encouraged, promoted, and virtually ordered by the government. This is also part of the union problem, contracts negotiated that are totally unsustainable.

There are more examples, but these for starters. I know you won't agree, probably, but the truth is not even arguable. And I am not interested therefore in being drawn into an argument, just pointing out the obvious.

Well, your opinions are valid, though I think it's a stretch to declare those the 'obvious truth.'

Let me ask a question - let us say that American autos were reduced in price to the same price as their foreign competitors. Do you honestly think they would be selling more cars? I think you need to take into account the fact that many of the cars made by our domestic guys are simply crappy automobiles that lack many of the attractive features foreign autos offer. It's not just the unions that make this happen, it's shitty marketing and business practices by the companies.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@okie,

okie, You arrive at conclusions not even suggested in my post; who ever said anything about divorcing ourselves from the world marketplace?

What "certain principles are eternal?" Please explain that in relation to the topic at hand?

Also, what government mandate made Detroit go broke? Please explain.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, your opinions are valid, though I think it's a stretch to declare those the 'obvious truth.'

Let me ask a question - let us say that American autos were reduced in price to the same price as their foreign competitors. Do you honestly think they would be selling more cars? I think you need to take into account the fact that many of the cars made by our domestic guys are simply crappy automobiles that lack many of the attractive features foreign autos offer. It's not just the unions that make this happen, it's shitty marketing and business practices by the companies.

Cycloptichorn

I have always driven domestic cars, and none of them have been crappy, in fact I have never had much trouble with any of them, and many I drive into the high 100 thousands. I have a car and truck now at 100k or more in miles, and I have had little or not trouble whatsoever, and I plan to drive them alot longer. If American cars cost thousands less, I guarantee the sales would go up tremendously, there is little doubt, this is common sense. Of course competitors would also sell, but market share would shift sowewhat, there could be not much debate here. I know people with Toyotas, etc., sure they are good cars, but they are not anything so special beyond a GM car, etc. Fact is, I have known people with older foreign cars that were absolutely worthless on rough country roads, the suspension and steering were made for city streets, and they gave out. Look, there is no monopoloy on quality, I think that is a myth.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, You arrive at conclusions not even suggested in my post; who ever said anything about divorcing ourselves from the world marketplace?

I never said you did, ci, those were additional observations of mine.

Quote:

What "certain principles are eternal?" Please explain that in relation to the topic at hand?

Also, what government mandate made Detroit go broke? Please explain.

Pinciples like supply and demand, price, quality, etc.

No one government mandate made Detroit go broke, but as I said, the entire package of government regulations and policies contributed to the problems now coming to a head. I cited unions and their unsustainable contracts and medical insurance as being two biggees, and government policies are part of those two problems, just a couple of countless ones.

So I think it is a bunch of hypocrits in Washington demanding Detroit get their house in order and then report back to Washington for their government handout. Sure, the car companies managed poorly, but for Washington to pretend it has no culpability, I don't buy it.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie, You are confused; government has nothing to do with unions except when Reagan locked out air controllers. How does that relate to auto companies?

It's quite evident that you make assertions without any basis in facts. If you have studied Economics 101, unions have helped non-union workers with better wages and benefits. You continue to have your head in your arse when you post. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

You are confused; government has nothing to do with unions except when Reagan locked out air controllers. How does that relate to auto companies?

Not true, government does right the "right to work" laws which are aimed at making it difficult for unions to operate. However, government had no hand in the automakers and UAW agreeing to CBA's that price american made out of competition, other than to urge both sides to come to agreement. Both managment and the UAW leaders had rocks for brains when they decided to pursue a cost structure that the marketplace will not support. Not that the cost problem was all in the CBA's, for instance it has been pointed out that the automakers spend far too many months and too many man hours in each design project, and this error is all on Managment.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
You are confused; government has nothing to do with unions except when Reagan locked out air controllers. How does that relate to auto companies?

Not true, government does right the "right to work" laws which are aimed at making it difficult for unions to operate.

That is one prime example. It is impossible to work at some jobs because unions have a monopoly on them, because of government policy in regard to unions.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

If you have studied Economics 101, unions have helped non-union workers with better wages and benefits.

......and have also helped non-union workers as well as union workers to be priced out of the job market entirely, by bankrupting the companies or driving them offshore. Great help they are, ci.

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@okie,

CI is right you are confused

Quote:

Right-to-work laws are statutes enforced in twenty-two U.S. states, mostly in the southern or western U.S., allowed under provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act, which prohibit agreements between trade unions and employers making membership or payment of union dues or "fees" a condition of employment, either before or after hiring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

Government sometimes makes it very difficult to set up union shops, makes it difficult for unions to operate. The union must have almost 100% reach into a shop to work, otherwise they can not finance operations and they can not encourage solidarity...the culture of brotherhood.

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@okie,

okie, You really don't understand any level of economics. It's not high wages and benefits that prices our products and services offshore. You need to study the concept of "competitive advantage." It's okay to offshore labor intensive jobs, but that also means we must develop more high tech products and services to create jobs in sectors new to the world economy. Your head stays in that dark place where you learned nothing from your conservative-washed brain in school. You are hopeless.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
If you have studied Economics 101, unions have helped non-union workers with better wages and benefits.

......and have also helped non-union workers as well as union workers to be priced out of the job market entirely, by bankrupting the companies or driving them offshore. Great help they are, ci.

Can you name actual companies which this has happened to, Okie?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

You're asking for facts which okie cannot provide. He's clueless.

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@cicerone imposter,

Not sure if anyone has posted this but here's an interactive map of unemployment trends by state.

map

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@JPB,

The map's unemployment trends is not surprising, because that's where most employment existed before this economic crisis started. Those are states where products and services were concentrated, so it's where the job losses would be highest.

1 Reply

Where is the US economy headed?

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