114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 04:32 pm
Quote:
Citigroup Buys Bank Operations of Wachovia


By ERIC DASH and ANDREW ROSS SORKIN
Published: September 29, 2008
Citigroup reached an agreement early Monday morning to acquire the banking operations of the Wachovia Corporation after making a daring bid that pulled the deeply troubled company from the brink of collapse.


Citigroup will pay $1 a share, or about $2.2 billion, according to people briefed on the deal
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/business/30bank.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Wacovia RIP

NEXT!
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 04:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
Three pints and a bag of salted peanuts please.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 08:30 am
Dow falls 300 points in early sell-off. Falls below 10,000 for the first time since 2004

Quote:
NEW YORK - Wall Street tumbled Monday, joining a selloff around the world as fears grew that the financial crisis will cascade through economies globally despite bailout efforts by the U.S. and other governments. The Dow Jones industrials skidded more than 300 points and fell below 10,000 for the first time in four years, while the credit markets remained under strain. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081006/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 08:49 am
@JPB,
No wonder McCain is reduced to playing the race card.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 08:52 am
@blueflame1,
Off 550 now.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 09:22 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Did any of you see my prediction that the DOW will hit 9,000? Also, that I sold some of our funds when it was over 14,000? When it hits about 9,000, I'm buying back the funds I sold - even if it goes lower, because I think the bottom is about 8,000.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 11:16 am
@cicerone imposter,
We agree on something then c.i. I have a theory though. I put it on a thread a few weeks back.

What's your's.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 03:09 pm
@spendius,
Well, I've been saying that our economy was in trouble from about one year ago:

My post 7 Dec 2007: I give recession a better than 50/50 chance next year.

My post 1 Aug 2007: The July 21st week lost over $500 billion in market value. I'm very cautious right now; I'm holding onto federal money market funds that's guaranteed. I sold between 35 percent to 40 percent of our year to date gains before the big drop, because I knew there was nothing to sustain 14000 on the DOW. Not with what I've been reporting on these threads about the sub-prime loans, highest consumer debt we've ever seen, and our feds spending money like there's no tomorrow. The US dollar continues to lose value against all currencies except the yen and yuan, but that's almost expected in the market place. Our trade imbalance gets a break for now, but I'm now sure how long those countries holding our paper will stand by watching as their holdings lose value. I see the future as pretty bleak. I predict that the stock market will reflect this condition for the next few months, only because people have short memories, but people will take advantage of low prices to buy back into the market. It's almost a predictable cycle.

My post 3 Aug 2007: For okie's benefit (re: the reason why I sold 35 to 40 percent of our annual gain when the DOW hit 14,000).

I'm only guessing, but I predict that the DOW will go even lower within the next several months. When I think it's hit close to bottom, I'll buy back some share of what I sold. You know; sell high, buy low.Signature

My post 10 Aug 2007: rjb is correct; it's to keep the markets liquid. Without the ability to lend money, the economy will freeze up and die.

My post 19 Aug 2007: Finn puts it at 18-months, but I'm not so sure about that. The lesson of this crisis will be longer term than 18-months IMHO. Loans will be harder to get, and those with bad credit ratings will be paying higher interest rates if they even get a loan.

My post 27 Aug 2007: The "bail out" is for self-preservation. If there's no more liquidity in the market to loan money to consumers, the economy will stop dead in its tracks. When the economy takes a downturn, retail sales slow down, people begin to lose their jobs, and tax revenue drops.

Actually, the infusion of cash is a good idea; it depends on how far they go with it.

My post 1 Oct 2007: okie, I pulled $13k more out today.

My post 19 Oct 2007: Rama, I just returned from two weeks in Tunisia, but this was the first thread I'm visiting before I call it a day. Your articles/posts show us how most investors have short memories and no idea about macro-economics. The DOW is still close to 14,000; a level that assumes our economy is hunky-dory.

My post 8 Jan 2008: Not only will 2008 be a volitile year for the stock market, many more workers are going to lose their jobs and their homes. This spiral cannot be controlled by the feds no matter how much they play with the interest rates.

So far, our country has lost some 750,000 jobs, and it’s expected that 3 million families will lose their homes.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 09:22 pm
Quote:
There is no liquidity anywhere,” one hedge fund manager told me. “No lending available. No interbank lending available. The fixed-income market is completely shut down. There is no activity going on anywhere.” (He asked me not to use his name because he didn’t want to spook his investors.)

The Federal Reserve announced yet another enormous injection of liquidity into the system Monday morning, saying it would make as much as $900 billion available. “What the Fed said was that it wasn’t just opening the window,” said Daniel Alpert, managing partner at Westwood Capital. “It is taking out the window sill and chipping out the bricks around it.”

The Fed’s move was barely noticed. Now there’s talk of another intervention by the Federal Reserve to help thaw the frozen credit markets by buying up short-term commercial debt.

“What I am worried about with all these bailouts,” said the great Wall Street historian Ron Chernow, “is whether they are going to eventually tax the resources of the federal government. The numbers are already getting very, very large. What is especially scary and unsettling is that even actions of this magnitude have not seemed to restore confidence. Each time, you thought that would be the one to stop the contagion. It hasn’t happened.”

This panic is taking place in such a compressed time frame that it is just astonishing. Mr. Chernow pointed out that while the stock market crash of 1929 took place over three brutal trading days in October 1929, it took nearly three years to reach bottom. By then, stocks had lost a shocking 89 percent of their value.

This crisis, by contrast, seems to be moving at hyper-speed " one day it is Lehman Brothers, the next A.I.G., the day after that Washington Mutual. This crisis doesn’t wear you down over time. It hits you over the head with a two-by-four. On a daily basis

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/business/07nocera.html?hp

Where are looking at the possibility that no amount of money thrown at the financial system will get it operating again. It may need to be replaced with a new global economic system. If this is so we will be lucky if we can skate by with only a recession. We are into likely depression topography.

CI, you are off your nut if you think that DOW 9000 will be as low as it goes.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 09:35 pm
Quote:
Another reason is that certain ominous dates are fast approaching. One is Oct. 23, when the auction will take place to settle the credit-default swaps relating to the Lehman bankruptcy. I saw one estimate that the amount of money firms will owe each other could be as much as $400 billion. Why? Firms that insured against the risk of a Lehman default are going to owe billions to other firms " but they’ll want to collect from the firms with whom they laid off the risk. And so on down the line. The upshot is that many firms are not going to have the money to pay off the insurance claims they owe, and they are likely to be ruined.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/business/07nocera.html?pagewanted=2&hp
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 10:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Naw, I'm sticking with 9,000.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2008 10:56 pm
@cicerone imposter,
you might better go back to the charts and see where the DOW was before we started artificially amping this society up on massive debt. When the access to cheap and easy debt goes away (and it is gone for good), we adjust the economy back more near to what were were before we become drugged up.

DOW bottoms out at 5-7K by then end of 09.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 12:59 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye, I've been "eyeing" the DOW from many decades ago. You just can't look at graphs and charts to analyze what happens today, or what to expect in the future. The world economy is much different today than the economy of a decade ago or longer. It's not the same; and any analysis must look at the macro economics of our country and the world's. Your numbers do not do this from my interpretation of your analysis. However, I must admit that mine are only a "guesses." One of the most important lessons about any economy is nobody really knows what the markets will hold for the future - short term or long term; if they did, most people would be making money instead of losing - like the pension's loss of 2 trillion dollars from this downturn.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 01:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
In opening the door to rate cuts, Bernanke is departing from the view he and other Fed officials had expressed until recently that lower rates would likely have little effect in boosting economic activity while credit markets are frozen.

Bernanke said the economy is poised for subdued growth during the remainder of this year and into next year.
Financial turmoil is likely to extend the weak period and increase risks to growth, he said.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 04:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
hawkeye, I've been "eyeing" the DOW from many decades ago. You just can't look at graphs and charts to analyze what happens today, or what to expect in the future. The world economy is much different today than the economy of a decade ago or longer. It's not the same; and any analysis must look at the macro economics of our country and the world's. Your numbers do not do this from my interpretation of your analysis. However, I must admit that mine are only a "guesses." One of the most important lessons about any economy is nobody really knows what the markets will hold for the future - short term or long term; if they did, most people would be making money instead of losing - like the pension's loss of 2 trillion dollars from this downturn.


the fact that the economy is different does not matter, all that does is that with the revoking of the ability to use massive debt in the markets (Leverage) means that the financial sector will have much less ability to funnel money to their customers. Their will be much less money to be made by playing, so everything offered by wallstreet is now worth a heck of a lot less. We were very stable with a dow 2,000 before we started to unleash the debt, and now that it is with drawn we will go back to the 1950-1980 values. This will change at some point soon as the entire global financial system is remade, as it was early last century, but who knows if a form of capitalism will even be the new order. Till then we need to reprice all wallstreet products to the pre leverage era, which puts the dow below 7,000.

we still have all of the failure of the hedge funds to go, all of the retail sector bankruptcies, and we still have some more financial sector institutions to fail after the accounts on the debt swap market are settled. Don't worry, it won't take long to get to the bottom.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 04:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
Humans do not learn from the lessons of history, and don't expect future generations to learn from history. Wars and economic cycles will be with humanity like men and women.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 09:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Humans do not learn from the lessons of history, and don't expect future generations to learn from history. Wars and economic cycles will be with humanity like men and women.


what is your point? I hope it is that we have been fools to believe the drivel fed to us over the last few decades; all that trickle down, markets are always right, debt is no problem, we don't need good paying jobs because we have wallstreet to make our money now utter bullshit that has been the conventional wisdom in this society for a long time time. Economic history no longer matters, nationalistic impulses no longer matters, what is best for our kids and grand kids no longer matters. It all made perfect sense, right?

Score another point for the majority......wrong this time as they are wrong almost all of the time.

Are you paying attention Craven??
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 09:35 pm
@hawkeye10,

the fact that the economy is different does not matter, all that does is that with the revoking of the ability to use massive debt in the markets (Leverage) means that the financial sector will have much less ability to funnel money to their customers.
Their will be much less money to be made by playing, so everything offered by wallstreet is now worth a heck of a lot less.

My response was to your statements (in bold) above. The makeup of the economy does matter; that's macroeconomics. Massive debt means nothing; our country built one of the biggest debt in history during WWII. What is offered by Wall Street has value as long as commerce is alive and well. It's worth a lot less today than it was 12-months ago or even a few years ago. That doesn't mean all economies of the world is going to lie down and die.



We were very stable with a dow 2,000 before we started to unleash the debt, and now that it is with drawn we will go back to the 1950-1980 values. This will change at some point soon as the entire global financial system is remade, as it was early last century, but who knows if a form of capitalism will even be the new order. Till then we need to reprice all wallstreet products to the pre leverage era, which puts the dow below 7,000.

Capitalism is the only hope for commerce to grow and survive.

we still have all of the failure of the hedge funds to go, all of the retail sector bankruptcies, and we still have some more financial sector institutions to fail after the accounts on the debt swap market are settled. Don't worry, it won't take long to get to the bottom.

Your guess is as good as mine; mine has no guarantees or contracts. It's my guess that the DOW will bottom out at about 9,000.


That we have now arrived at this crisis in the finanacial markets that is now affecting most countries, I'm sure there will be some "confidence" restored into it. That's what the "rescue" plan is all about. We just don't know how long it'll be before businesses and consumers will be able to get credit to buy higher priced products such as kitchen appliances and cars.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 08:05 pm
Quote:
WASHINGTON " Having tried without success to unlock frozen credit markets, the Treasury Department is considering taking ownership stakes in many United States banks to try to restore confidence in the financial system, according to government officials.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/business/economy/09econ.html?hp

it is about damn time...nationalizing wall street is the only way out this late into the pending collapse.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 09:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

The Standard & Poor’s index of 500 stocks is down 22 percent since the end of September, and 42 percent since it peaked a year ago.

It may be time to try a new approach, and perhaps to abandon the announced details of the bailout plan passed by Congress with such difficulty only a week ago. The government needs to decide which banks it is sure are worth saving, and pump capital into them directly.

Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. indicated this week that he was considering such an approach, which would be much simpler and could be much more effective.

The announced plan for the bailout package was for the government to buy up dubious assets from banks, paying more than they are worth now but less than they are expected to be worth later.

If that is completed, banks will get cash " $700 billion or more. But their net worth will rise only to the extent the government overpays for the assets. Pricing those assets will be anything but easy, and the expectation of the government program has further frozen those markets. No one wants to sell until they can find out what the government will offer.

The alternative is to go in the direction Britain went this week. The government could use the $700 billion, or at least a large part of it, to buy preferred stock in banks.

The government could be selective in deciding which banks get the cash, and it could impose conditions on those that seek the money. Those banks could be required to come clean about the risks that they have taken in dubious assets, and to write those assets down to what a willing buyer would pay now.

With that information, the government may decide to let some banks fail. But the others, in which the government does invest, would have a government seal of approval that was backed up by cash.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/business/10norris.html?hp

The US will follow Britain in nationalizing the banks, because it is the only way out of this mess. Market capitalism is dead in its current form, some form of socialism will take over.
 

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