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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Apr, 2008 06:05 pm
This little essay from realjohnboy should illicit some response:

Most of us here filled out our tax returns recently. We waded through the first page and then Schedules A and B and C and D. Pretty complicated stuff.

Would yall agree with this general thesis. The tax code is designed to not only collect revenue for the federal government but also to promote some kind of societal behavior that is deemed as good.

For example, if you give $20 to the SPCA, that is good. You can claim that as a deduction. If you own 10 shares of Bear Stearns that you paid $100 each for, you get $1000 deduction even though the the SPCA gets a mere pittance from a near worthless stock.

Which brings me to mortgage interest as a deduction on your tax returns. Home ownership is considered good. Home ownership encourages stability in neighborhoods. Renters are bad.

The mortgage interest deduction cost the US some $63 billion in 2005.

The developers, real estate agents and mortgage bankers say that that was money well invested. Contrarians might argue that suburban sprawl with the increase in need for highways and gasoline demand more than offsets that.

Is there any reason why home owners should get a tax break while home renters get nothing?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 08:14 am
georgeob1 wrote:
You are mischaracterizing my positions on both.

I really have no "knee jerk reflex" with respect to the positions of Republican executives. You may not believe this, but it is true. One could well make a case for knee jerk like opposition to the proposals of many Democrats - I'll confess to that.

Fair enough. I take it back.

georgeob1 wrote:
In short my preferences are much closer to McCain's proposals than they are to those of the other candidates.

Again, fair enough. You prefer unfunded tax cuts to an unfunded expansion of government services. Can we agree that both suck? I'm not a horse race guy myself, so when I look at a shoddy economic plan like McCain's, I don't consider it as a valid defense that the competition's plans are just as shoddy. (That's assuming that they actually are just as shoddy. Whether that's the case is a separate discussion.)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 11:21 am
Last sentence from Krugman's article: More and more, Mr. McCain sounds like a man who will say anything to become president.

Sounds to me it also reflects on Hillary; say anything to become president; it depends on the audience.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 11:40 am
my view is this.
let the poor pathetic population
pollute not the barbaric banal citizens.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 12:32 pm
Thomas wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
In short my preferences are much closer to McCain's proposals than they are to those of the other candidates.

Again, fair enough. You prefer unfunded tax cuts to an unfunded expansion of government services. Can we agree that both suck? I'm not a horse race guy myself, so when I look at a shoddy economic plan like McCain's, I don't consider it as a valid defense that the competition's plans are just as shoddy. (That's assuming that they actually are just as shoddy. Whether that's the case is a separate discussion.)


You may at last have touched on a point from which we can get some mutual understanding.

I don't perceive that any of the candidates have offered a complete plan or even outline of how, in their spending and tax proposals, they will achieve a tolerable Federal budget/income position in the short term or how any of it might contribute to an improvement of our government debt & deficit positions on a longer time scale. Moreover, I doubt that any of them will ever do so. This, unfortunately, is no longer a prominently discussed issue in our national politics. That is most unfortunate. As a result, of it all of us are left with the chore of interpreting how the candidates might, in their future behavior, contribute to an improvement or worsening of the situation, and doing so based on extrapolations of hints they deliberately or inadvertantly provide in the subjects they do choose to address. Interestingly this does lead us to some potentially useful speculation.

Obama (and the other Democrats) appear to be motivated by a desire to use tax and economic policy to correct what they see as a problem of income inequality that they apparently believe has harmed our economic development and the economic interests of a large majority of Americans.
While I agree that income spreads have grown, I don't agree that the truly significant remedies for our overall economic growth or the improvement of the situations of people at the low end of the income can be found in direct government actions to transfer wealth from the few at the top to the many at the bottom. Firstly the numbers don't work out, and more importantly, much more can be gained from working to increasing the size of the pie than engaging government in adjustments of relative shares. Moreover, the side effects of such policies have been repeatedly shown to discourage growth and, in the worst cases, to lead only to uniform poverty.

I believe that the increases in the income tax rates & tax rates for corporations and the reduction or elimination of reduced rates for capital gains & some dividends - all advocated by the Democrats - would be immediately harmful to our economy in its present condition. Instead I would look to reductions in Federal spending as a means of correcting current excess deficits and candidates who might be interested in doing this.

Unfortunately none of this is to be found among Democrats, who vaguely promise to significantly increase social welfare spending and spending for infrastructure programs, and pay for it all with cuts in Defense spending (that for unrelated reasons, I doubt they will be able to accomplish). As you correctly note, Mccain has provided only a vague and incomplete description of how he might reduce federal spending. However, unlike his opponents, he has at least voiced a priority for doing so. Moreover he has also put his tax proposals in the context of stimulating broad economic growth that might benefit all.

This situation, though not providing voters a complete outline of how the candidates' might deal with these intertwined issues does at least provide enough basis for discriminating between the two. For me that difference suggests that McCain is more likely to contribute to economic growth for all and fiscal stability than will his Democrat opponents. I can't prove the case either way: unfortunately all of us must choose based on the incomplete information we have.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 12:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Last sentence from Krugman's article: More and more, Mr. McCain sounds like a man who will say anything to become president.

Sounds to me it also reflects on Hillary; say anything to become president; it depends on the audience.

Don't forget to include the other candidate, ci.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 12:37 pm
The American systme ir rotten to the core.
Think about the election Dr5ama!!!!!!!!!!
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 12:49 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
The American systme ir rotten to the core.
Think about the election Dr5ama!!!!!!!!!!

It becomes distasteful from time to time, but not totally rotten to the core like some of your leftists have wreaked havoc, Rama. For example, Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe has totally run that country into the ground, and it is truly rotten there. Are you proud?
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 12:52 pm
Okie
I agree with you.
I expose hypocracy and uphold decency, Democracy, decorum.
I had repeated umptenn times.


Let us be as we are.
Regards.
Rama
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 01:30 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Last sentence from Krugman's article: More and more, Mr. McCain sounds like a man who will say anything to become president.

Sounds to me it also reflects on Hillary; say anything to become president; it depends on the audience.



There is a difference. What Hillary says is reasonable and not, were it implemented, detrimental to the country.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 07:18 pm
All their rhetoric sucks; I'm still not convinced any one of the three can deliver on what they've been "promising."
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Apr, 2008 09:18 pm
ci, this is all predictable and has been going on for a long long time. We have had a media for the last decades, increasingly so, that will castigate any politician that doesn't agree to increase entitlements, and they regularly bring out the accusations of starving children, old people dying, people without jobs, and everything else. So what do you expect politicians to do? We now have raised and educated a generation of people to think the sole purpose of government is to provide every necessity of life, plus many that are not, plus happiness to every man, woman, and child in this country, whether they are winos, dropouts, bums, or whatever.

Once enough people in a democracy have figured out they can vote themselves more entitlements and more money, then the government will eventually go broke, unless we return to a stricter interpretation of what the constitution mandates the government to do, which is alot less than it is already doing. And politicians are at the mercy of voters that will only vote for candidates that promise them more money. Thats where we are at, ci.
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 05:06 am
okie wrote:
We now have raised and educated a generation of people to think the sole purpose of government is to provide every necessity of life, plus many that are not, plus happiness to every man, woman, and child in this country, whether they are winos, dropouts, bums, or whatever.


I just want to stop funding that promise to the people of Iraq.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 08:44 am
Okay then, tell your congressman that. Congress voted, Bush acted, and all is done according to a representative republic. Do you also wish to quit spending any money on foreign aid to any foreign country as well, to be consistent with your philosophy of spending here? And do you favor an isolationist philosophy? Should we quit funding the U.N.?
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:02 am
Okie, I guess you would want to eliminate social security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. What else would you eliminate?
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:13 am
Now that you have the entitlement mentality, you cannot drop them cold turkey, because people have come to depend upon them. It would not be fair to leave people empty handed that have faithfully paid into the funds, fully expecting to be taken care of. I would however want to reform them in important ways. Of course Bush tried, but was denied, and so the beat goes on, as the drain continues unabated.

In regard to Social Security, we should advertise the fact that it is a supplemental plan only, and was never intended to be a full retirement plan. There are a number of things that need to be done, but one of the first would be to require all government employees begin paying into the system.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:23 am
okie wrote:
Now that you have the entitlement mentality, you cannot drop them cold turkey, because people have come to depend upon them. It would not be fair to leave people empty handed that have faithfully paid into the funds, fully expecting to be taken care of. I would however want to reform them in important ways. Of course Bush tried, but was denied, and so the beat goes on, as the drain continues unabated.

In regard to Social Security, we should advertise the fact that it is a supplemental plan only, and was never intended to be a full retirement plan. There are a number of things that need to be done, but one of the first would be to require all government employees begin paying into the system.


You don't seem to understand that Social Security and Medicaid were crucial elements of the greatest economic expansion in history. SS itself has done more in terms of home ownership and mobility between classes then any other action taken by a gov't. The concept of getting rid of such a successful program is ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:24 am
Okie, government employees, including members of congress, have been paying into the system since the early '80's.

How did Bush try to reform the programs? If you are thinking of his proposal to privatize part of social security, both Reps and Dems knew it wasn't a reform and was a terrible idea. It hasn't worked in other countries. Were there other reforms he didn't get through?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:40 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You don't seem to understand that Social Security and Medicaid were crucial elements of the greatest economic expansion in history. SS itself has done more in terms of home ownership and mobility between classes then any other action taken by a gov't. The concept of getting rid of such a successful program is ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn


Oh really? Just when was "the greatest economic expansion in history", and what brought it about? Did the Social Security retirement & disability programs have anything to do with it? Did the medicaid program even exist then? (The answer is no in both cases.)

What possible significant connections could there be between SS benefits and home ownership - can you demonstrate that home purchases by people over age 65, and eligible for these benefits, amounted to a significant portion of that expansion? I don't think so. The same point can be made about mobility between classes - how does a floor on post retirement income affect social mobility, which mostly occurs at a younger age?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 10:46 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You don't seem to understand that Social Security and Medicaid were crucial elements of the greatest economic expansion in history. SS itself has done more in terms of home ownership and mobility between classes then any other action taken by a gov't. The concept of getting rid of such a successful program is ridiculous.

Cycloptichorn


Oh really? Just when was "the greatest economic expansion in history", and what brought it about? Did the Social Security retirement & disability programs have anything to do with it? Did the medicaid program even exist then? (The answer is no in both cases.)

What possible significant connections could there be between SS benefits and home ownership - can you demonstrate that home purchases by people over age 65, and eligible for these benefits, amounted to a significant portion of that expansion? I don't think so. The same point can be made about mobility between classes - how does a floor on post retirement income affect social mobility, which mostly occurs at a younger age?


C'mon, George, it's simple: the removal of the inevitable necessity of lodging and providing financial support for one's parents has added a tremendous amount of financial mobility to the children of said parents. It has lead to the huge percentage of home ownership, not because those over 65 have bought more homes, but because their children have bought more homes. It has mostly done away with the multi-generational household model here in America.

You should focus more on the effects that SS has on those who are not in fact retired, then on those who are, for that is where the benefit to society lies.

Cycloptichorn
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