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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 02:03 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
....a huge downturn from now till....


November 2009 (my prediction).
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 02:37 pm
Quote:
Still, when adjusted for inflation, gold remains well below its all-time high. An ounce of gold at $875 in 1980 would be worth $2,115 to $2,200 today.

I HOPE ALL AMERICANS ARE THANKFUL




source :
GOLD !!!
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 03:01 pm
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 05:38 pm
Good evening. Perhaps yall caught this yesterday, or not.
American Express noted that the volume of charges on AMEX cards dropped rather dramatically beginning in early December. The drop was dramatic enough that they warned Wall Street that their earnings for the year may be impacted. In addition, the number of delinquent accounts accounts rose.

Some generalizations about AMEX cards: they target a more sophisticated market than Visa/Mastercard/Discover. Unless you are pretty well off, you don't get piles of junk mail from them wanting to give you a card. In fact they charge an annual fee if you want one.
They also expect you to pay your balance each month on time, unlike the others who hope you will be late so they can sock you with late fees.
AMEX makes its money mostly off of the annual fees and the slightly higher rate they charge me (a merchant) vs a charge on one of the other brands.

The fact that spending on AMEX cards is down suggests to me that consumer spending is even more threatened as retail prices rise.

I have told this story before, but I will tell it again. Back in 2000 or so, whenever the bubble burst in the stock market's technology sector, when the UVA students got back from holiday break we were inundated with students looking for part time jobs. Probably a five-fold increase in my chain of retail stores. It will be interesting to see if there is a recurrence of that this time around.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 07:17 pm
john wrote :

Quote:
Some generalizations about AMEX cards: they target a more sophisticated market than Visa/Mastercard/Discover. Unless you are pretty well off, you don't get piles of junk mail from them wanting to give you a card. In fact they charge an annual fee if you want one.


must be different here in canada . not only do we get plenty of junk mail from AMEX , they repeatedly offer us their credit card WITHOUT an annual fee - and give airmiles on top !

as a matter of interest , we get plenty of invitations - both by mail and phone-calls - from several american banks to PLEASE , PLEASE take their credit card (through their canadian subsidiaries ) .

had several phone-calls (probably from india) where they told me , please take our card , you won't have to sign anything , but please accept our card !

last offer they wanted to lent us $10,000 at 1.99% for six months if we agreed to take the card . i was tempted but mrs h told me not to take the bait - i didn't .

the economy has so far held up resonably well in canada , but it's pretty clear that the downturn in the U.S. will have an impact upon canada - lumber exports to the u.S. are already down sharply !
hbg
hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 07:31 pm
just by chance i came across this song parody from the wild 80's .
perhaps a good reminder !
hbg

Quote:
This is another song in the history of financial markets collection.. probably won't mean much to many people!

Back in the 80s
When Michael Milken's junk bonds ruled the roost
It got so crazy
A billion golden eggs popped from that goose
Was like a dream
Those high yield bonds just took off like a rocket
Oh Michael please
You know I'll pay them back
I guarantee
Just give some to me

I need that thriller winner ride
When I move on into into M and A
I can keep satisfied
I need that thriller winner ride
Insider trading all the way
Was such a billion dollar ride

But Ivan Boesky
Got caught and wound up working for the feds
They tapped his phones just as he and Saunders climbed right into bed
And that was why
Their manipulation could not be denied
They realised
The regulators couldn't let them slide
They put them inside
It was chiller killer ride
Well they had no place to go
No No they had no place to hide

It was a chiller killer ride
No they couldn't take the 5th
It was a grimmer chiller killer ride
They could not believe
That they'd wound up in jail for their escapade
It was all so unfair
Cos they hadn't done anything wrong
It seemed like the end of their life

But Saunders tricked them
You must admit he had a lot of front
That early onset
Alzheimer's scam was such a cunning stunt
He came out fighting
Determined to redeem his reputation
His human rights had been trashed
And he was goin to make them pay
He was goin all the way

It was a thriller winner ride
He took then on at Strasbourg
And he proved that he was right
It was a thriller winner ride
And he got some satisfaction from that
Thriller winner chiller grimmer killer ride

It was a thriller killer ride
Michael Milken nearly died in jail
But even he survived
It was a thriller killer ride
But was it really worth it
For that chiller killer

Now investigators have been Saundered
forced testimony must now be squandered
No matter how much cash you've laundered
From bank accounts that you have plundered

Those Strasbourg judges tore asunder
the weary law enforcer's thunder
they may come to regret their blunder
In times to come I shouldn't wonder

But thanks to Ernest and his chums
Maybe justice has been done
The right to silence has been won
So take the fifth and just stay stum

Big brother's power has been curbed
Shaken somewhat if not stirred
His complacency has been disturbed
You do not have to say one word

But big brother can fight back
With stings and bugs and honeytraps
It's very hard to beat the rap
When your computer files have all been hacked
That is a wrap

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 07:54 pm
Most of the "junk" mail I get to promote credit cards is from airlines that offer 25,000 miles, but the catch is that although the first year is free of a fee, the following year jumps to $60/annual. No thanks.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 08:12 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Most of the "junk" mail I get to promote credit cards is from airlines that offer 25,000 miles, but the catch is that although the first year is free of a fee, the following year jumps to $60/annual. No thanks.


Amusingly enough, Tak, my little brother, who is incredibly frugal, plays that game religiously. He reads the ads, signs up for the cards, follows the rules, makes a few needed purchases which he pays off on time, and then cancels before any fees kick in. And gets the rewards.
I asked him why and his reply was that he doesn't follow NFL etc, so this was his hobby. He keeps a spread-sheet of what he has to do and when.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 08:54 pm
Good for Tak. He's playing their game and making them pay.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2008 08:56 pm
Still haven't, but plan to the next time they send me one. he he he..
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jan, 2008 07:35 am
Throughout history, the inclination of all leaders everywhere is not to tell you the bad news. You know how it is: the folks who guaranteed you of a chicken in every pot, a war to end all wars, a land of plenty, a war to make democracy safe, a global war on terror, a thousand points of light, no child left behind, a kinder gentler nation, family values, compassionate conservatism, a new prosperity, a new American Empire, or an old stinky empire… these gentlemen do not like it when the facts fail to line up with the rhetoric. Or, to be more accurate, they do not like it when, due to the importune intrusion of reality, those who rent life by their labor start to notice the difference between promise and propaganda.

Bad news leads to bad views, and bad views lead to a surliness in the general population that eventually undermines the legitimacy of the status quo. Leaders do not like that.

So whether it’s global climate chaos, peak oil, the meltdown of a nuclear power reactor core, currency collapse or the fact that the Titanic Ship of State has struck an iceberg and is sinking, the economy and steerage class passengers will always be the last to be told. This, then, is your guidebook to the Signs and Wonders that will confirm what you suspect when everyone denies it.
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/signs-and-wonders/
A lengthy humourous article worth reading
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 05:56 am
“Financial market conditions...have produced a volatile situation that has made forecasting the course of the economy even more difficult than usual. (We have seen) continued increases in the prices of energy (as well as) a sharp and protracted correction in the U.S. housing market. According to the most recent available data, housing starts and new home sales have both fallen by about 50 percent from their respective peaks.”

Bernanke made no effort to conceal the gloomy facts:

“Currently, about 21% of subprime ARMs are ninety days or more delinquent, and foreclosure rates are rising sharply ...Fraud and abusive practices contributed to the high rates of delinquency that we are now seeing in the subprime ARM market, the more fundamental reason for the sharp deterioration in credit quality was the flawed premise on which much subprime ARM lending was based: that house prices would continue to rise rapidly. (This) will have adverse effects for communities and the broader economy as well as for the borrowers themselves.”

Bernanke was equally blunt about the credit crunch that resulted from the excesses in subprime lending:

“One of the many unfortunate consequences of these events, which may be with us for some time, is on the availability of credit for nonprime borrowers...The far-reaching financial impact of the subprime shock is that it has contributed to a considerable increase in investor uncertainty about the appropriate valuations of a broader range of financial assets, not just subprime mortgages. (As a result) the problems in the subprime mortgage market may lead overall economic growth to slow.”

Bernanke went on to give a very detailed account of how the banks “underwrote many of the loans and created many of the structured credit products (MBS, CDOs, ABCP) that were sold into the market. Banks also supported the various investment vehicles in many ways, for example, by serving as advisers and by providing standby liquidity facilities and various credit enhancements.”

As the problems in subprime have grown, the banks have been forced to take on more and more of their struggling “off balance” sheet operations which dramatically increases their debt-load and further impairs their capital base. This explains why the banks have been reporting huge losses from their deteriorating collateral while their market value has dropped sharply. Now banks have become more restrictive in their lending and credit has become more expensive and less available.

When the banks are unable to issue loans; the economy suffers.

Bernanke added ominously: “The market strains have been serious, and they continue to pose risks to the broader economy.”

Amen, to that.
Economic soothsayer Doug Noland summed it up like this:

“The Mortgage Finance Bubble is a bust, Wall Street finance is imploding, and foreign financial institutions are keen to cut and run from the business of providing U.S. Credit... Worse yet, the economy is quickly succumbing to recessionary forces. With a high degree of confidence we can proclaim that the Mortgage Crisis has now evolved into a Corporate Debt Crisis – and this crisis will not be resolved anytime soon – by rates, by helicopters, or by bailouts.” (Doug Noland “Mortgage Crisis to Corporate Debt Crisis”, Prudent Bear)

Thanks for your honesty, Ben, but all the exits appear to be bolted-shut. We'll have to ride this storm out from inside the bunker.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19058.htm
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 11:00 am
Last year, on the recommendation of the citi Bank fianancial officer, I invested some money into their Franklin fund. In less than one year, it lost over ten percent; I went to the bank last week and told the "clerk" to transfer that investment into money market funds. She informed me that that fund was heavily invested into subprime mortgages.

It'll now take about three years to "earn" back what I've lost in eight months. Lesson learned, maybe.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2008 11:03 am
C I
Sorry to know that you had lost some hard earned/saved money.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 02:42 am
okie wrote:
Excellent assessment, pstewart.

To add my comment, for people looking for and wanting bad economic news for political purposes, there are always indicators and news that will accomplish their purposes. I have always noticed that those same people often change their tune and start singing the praises of other indicators and news when the people in office are more to their liking.

And if things are so bad, how come around 94% in a new poll are satisfied with their lives, and a majority think their lives have gotten better over the last 5 years? Hmmm.....I think George Bush has been in office for the last 5 years. Happy days are here again, unless you are imposter or cyclops, etc.

http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/96340


Happy days are here again ah Okie. Laughing Laughing

The "Left wing fringe" here have been calling it right on everything since I got here. The rightwing and the status quo groupies have had there head up their ass the whole time.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 03:03 am
posted Thu Jul 12, 2007

okie wrote:
I'm sure the stock market must be bad news to you, imposter.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289070,00.html

283 points or more than 2% rise in the market in one day, imposter. Gettin close to 14,000. I'm sure the investors based this on all the bleak economic news that you talk about all the time.
Laughing Laughing

They should have. People used to act like C.I. was nuts.

C.I. was right the whole time! he predicted it!
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 03:14 am
Posted: Sun May 27, 2007

georgeob1 wrote:
I believe that Cicerone, Cyclo and the others here should do a better job of putting their somewhat hysterical forecasts of economic doom in some kind of rational context.

So far I have seen references to a growing income disparity, low personal savings rates, the negative trade balance and the cost of medical care.

(body of bull$hit left out)

I don't think that these are the signs of a failing economy.
Laughing Laughing A fiscal conservative?!?!?
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 03:26 am
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007

okie wrote:
Lower prices for homes spurred sales, so it is a success of the free market again, and you can spin it negatively, sure, but I like the positive side, which is homes are moving again, and they are also more affordable for people that want to buy. Its the American dream, and under Bush, home ownership hit a new high at around 69%, which is higher than when Clinton left office by the way. I'm sure you will find a way to make that into bad news, imposter.


http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47327&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1240

C.I. debates left wing conservatives on economy. It is worth reading.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 10:23 am
Amigo wrote:
okie wrote:
Excellent assessment, pstewart.

To add my comment, for people looking for and wanting bad economic news for political purposes, there are always indicators and news that will accomplish their purposes. I have always noticed that those same people often change their tune and start singing the praises of other indicators and news when the people in office are more to their liking.

And if things are so bad, how come around 94% in a new poll are satisfied with their lives, and a majority think their lives have gotten better over the last 5 years? Hmmm.....I think George Bush has been in office for the last 5 years. Happy days are here again, unless you are imposter or cyclops, etc.

http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/96340


Happy days are here again ah Okie. Laughing Laughing

The "Left wing fringe" here have been calling it right on everything since I got here. The rightwing and the status quo groupies have had there head up their ass the whole time.

Amigo, where have I ever said the economy is not cyclical? Home prices and sales have stagnated recently and have gone down in some areas, but still rise in others, which is nothing new. Part of it is the economy overall, and alot of it is local economics and the flow of people from area to area, which is nothing new. And as I've said before, such conditions can be negative in some ways, but it also offers opportunities for others. It may be a good time to buy a house. All of this is simply part of the free market finding its most efficient level of conditions.

I don't think this is a beginning of a huge depression, but instead a downturn or correction, part of the natural cycle. I agree with ci, that government needs to reign in spending and do something serious about the deficits.

Our economic problems are rooted as much or more in cultural problems, such as education and broken families, than they are in economic policy. And to be accurate, these cultural problems can be influenced by political policies aside from economic policies. Just my opinion.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 12:10 pm
okie wrote: Amigo, where have I ever said the economy is not cyclical? Home prices and sales have stagnated recently and have gone down in some areas, but still rise in others, which is nothing new. Part of it is the economy overall, and a lot of it is local economics and the flow of people from area to area, which is nothing new. And as I've said before, such conditions can be negative in some ways, but it also offers opportunities for others. It may be a good time to buy a house. All of this is simply part of the free market finding its most efficient level of conditions.

okie: "...have I ever said the economy is not cyclical?" This statement just repeats something that is so common, saying it just shows how much you really don't understand. Did you study macro-economics?

okie: "Home prices and sales have stagnated recently and have gone down in some areas, but still rise in others, which is nothing new."
Here again, okie shows his ignorance: when in the history of the US have we had a subprime mortgage crisis that have affected the financial institutions all over the world?

okie: "Part of it is the economy overall, and a lot of it is local economics and the flow of people from area to area, which is nothing new."
If it's "nothing new" what is the purpose of even repeating it? It has absolutely no meaning in this context.

okie: "And as I've said before, such conditions can be negative in some ways, but it also offers opportunities for others. It may be a good time to buy a house."
You probably still haven't been told, but mortgage money has essentially dried up, and is available only to those with a good credit rating and sufficient income to qualify for a mortgage loan. How many families or individuals do you think qualify that already doesn't own a home?

okie: "All of this is simply part of the free market finding its most efficient level of conditions." Here, again, you seem ignorant about macro-economics. When the biggest economy in the world is forecasting a recession, that affects all economies. Today's US economy is not the same as other periods of recession; the dramatic changes in our economy while our currency losses value against all other currencies does not bode well for the future of our economy; that's the real "free market finding its most efficient level of conditions" while more middle class families lose their health insurance, jobs, homes, and any semblance of financial security.

Keep looking at the bright side, okie. The US economy hasn't seen the bottom of the downturn, and things are going to get much worse for several more years. Just hope you're not one of those losing your job and/or your home.
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