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Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 07:45 pm
Jim Rogers Urges People to Sell U.S. Dollar Holdings (Update1)

By Aaron Pan and Paul Gordon

Nov. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Investor Jim Rogers urged people to get out of the dollar and says he expects to be rid of all his U.S. currency assets by summer next year.

``If you have dollars, I urge you to get out,'' Rogers said in an interview from Singapore. He is chairman of New York-based Rogers Holdings, formerly known as Beeland Interests Inc. ``That's not a currency to own.''

The dollar fell 9.5 percent this year against a basket of six major currencies as a housing slump slowed the economy and losses stemming from subprime mortgage defaults spread among U.S. banks. Rogers, who said last month he was shifting out of all his dollar assets, plans to buy commodities, Japan's yen, the Chinese yuan and the Swiss franc.

Interest rate futures traded on the Chicago Board of Trade show a 72 percent chance that the central bank will lower its target rate for overnight loans between banks to 4.25 percent on Dec. 11, its third reduction this year.

Rogers, who predicted the start of the global commodities rally in 1999, criticized Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke for comments on the currency before a congressional committee on Nov. 8.

``He is a total fool,'' Rogers said. ``He said Americans who buy only American goods are not affected if the value of the U.S. dollar goes down. I was terrified.''

Bernanke said the only effect of a weaker dollar on a typical American with their wealth in dollars, buying consumer goods in dollars, would be ``their buying powers, it makes imported goods more expensive.''

Rogers said that's not right.

``If you only buy American products and the dollar goes down, the price of oil goes up, copper goes up, wheat goes up,'' he said. ``That affects you. He doesn't understand the economy as far as I can see.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aXH9wCx1oydw
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2007 08:23 pm
As a total sidebar to everything else:
Charlottesville, VA, (metro area of 130,000) is holding up okay. Yes, there are a lot of houses on the market and I am sure there are some anxious sellers, but prices are holding steady.
This is largely due to the fact that we have the Univ of Va. 16,000 mostly well-heeled students and, because we have the very large UVA medical complex (care, teaching, research), there are some 10,000 jobs there.
A few years ago I, along with my younger and older brother, started to buy a few bits of land adjacent to my house on a then sleepy road.
In due course it became a busy road and we put in a sweet little luxury rental town-house project around the 200 year old oaks. We renovated the 100 year-old cottage and the equally old big house, tucked in a 2,000 sq ft office building and still have room for a 10,000 sq ft office building and necessary parking down below.
Several months ago I suggested that, because of our advancing ages, we consider putting the entire project on the market. My real estate guy quietly did so. Quitely in the sense that there are no signs, no advertising. He simply talked to other realtors.
Last week he called to say that a "local" group was interested and had gotten an appraisal, which came in fine. But then their bank, pulling back, offered a loan amount vs the appraisal that just would not work. End of that.
This is where it gets interesting.. A couple of days later I got a call from my real estate guy saying that an "out of town" group was interested and, if we agreed on a price, it would be a cash deal (meaning that there would still be surveys, title searches etc but no bank would be involved). So closing could be in something like 30 days.
I was skeptical, figuring that these were a bunch of cowboys, or worse yet, yankees, riding into town, waving cash, and trying to pick up distressed properties on the cheap.
Lo and behold they bought 12 condos on one day at near the asking price, and a small shopping center the next day at, I hear, full price.
They made me an offer on our property. I doubt that we will agree, but everything has to be in writing.. My real estate guy brings me an offer, I reject it and write in a new price, and back it goes.

I noticed that the potential buyer (out of suburban Maryland) has an Iranian name. I am pretty sure about that, but not 100% sure.

My point is that, with the dollar so low and with real estate prices in the U.S. flat, foreigners are scooping up property in the states.

As usual, I apologize for the long post, but it is in my own words, which should count for something. -realjohnboy-
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 12:26 am
To peggy-back on rjb's post, I must agree that any extreme such as getting rid of all US currency is not a good idea. First of all, it's not only the US that has a liquidity problem; look at Europe and their "strongest" economies. Secondly, China just had a six percent inflation last month; and it's going to get worse before they see any improvement. Without the strongest growing economy, China, losing its steam, and their internal problems, there is no currency on this planet that can take over the US dollar. We have seen backups of trucks in China lined up to fuel up, because they are running short. Their demand is growing too fast against supply. The sub-prime liquidity problem has also hit some big banks in Europe, and we're still not sure which financial institutions have exposed their problems to the public. The US still has problems to be sure, but our domestic economy is still pretty healthy, because our inflation rate is still "reasonable."

That being said, I can still envision our stock market getting hit pretty badly - with losses over ten percent in the next 12 to 18 months.
Speculators are keeping our market higher than is justified in this climate.

Be patient; the world economy is flexible enough to outlive the current crisis.

Cash/oil rich countries will buy whatever they can in the countries they think has the best potential to live out the current crisis.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 08:09 am
Quote:
He said Americans who buy only American goods are not affected if the value of the U.S. dollar goes down. I was terrified


Shades of Harold Wilson's famous "pound in you pocket" speech to the nation when he devalued the £ from $2.80 to $2.40.

What followed, apart from the laughing, was 15 years of rabid inflation peaking, spiking if you like, at 27%. The intended consequence was that a whole generation got their houses more or less free and the older generation got the linings ripped out of their pockets and handbags.

Then, when that lot had their houses they elected Mrs Thatcher to put a stop to inflation to make sure the generation coming up behind them couldn't work the same electoral magic on them.

The biggest laugh of all was that this success they had they put down to their talent and intelligence and it wasn't long before they were all taking IQ tests to prove it which, obviously at £400 a go in today's prices, they duly did and now I'm surrounded in the pub by a bunch of near geniuses who all have an inscribed parchment to prove it and who battle it out once a week in the quiz which consists of questions carefully designed to make sure there is a winner, a necessary outcome of a quiz, or a cup final for that matter, and that nobody loses badly. They do profiles on a pub's clientelle before deciding which particular Quiz best suits its purposes. The best pubs are those where the Quiz is designed for tabloid readers and couchies. The ladies wear less and the fights always jolly-up a good evening.

But on observed trends I have noticed that the ladies are wearing more these days than 2 years ago, not all of them of course, and there are less fights. It might be due to the plummeting sperm count which scientists have detected but don't make a big noise about.

Whether Mr Bernanke's Wilsonian jest is a harbinger of a repeat performance, albeit on a larger scale, and Americans are notable for scale, a compensatory thing I've read somewhere, I am not qualified to judge.

If anybody is making up a satirical ditty they might consider "Thank-ee" to rhyme with Bernanke. In fact, thinking about it, i.e. running through the alphabet, backwards for preference, there are a number of suitable rhymes for such a composition.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 08:16 am
BTW-

The reason that Investor Jim Rogers is "terrified" is because he has a great deal to lose. His problem is that there are too few with a lot to lose to swing elections in the face of a large number with nothing to lose who all take a totally different view than he does.

And media ratings does the rest. A newspaper or TV programme that Mr Rogers would like bombs commercially if anybody is daft enough to try one.
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 08:54 am
Recession in America
America's vulnerable economy

Nov 15th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Granted, GDP grew by a robust 3.9%, at an annual rate, in the third quarter. Granted also, revisions may well push this figure up. But that was the past. More timely signs suggest that the economy could stall in this quarter. By early next year, output and jobs could be shrinking. The main cause is the imploding housing market. Experts said that house prices could never fall nationwide. But fall they have, by 5% in the past 12 months. Residential investment has collapsed, but a glut of unsold homes means that prices have much further to drop. Americans' spending is likely to be dented much more by a fall in house prices than it was in 2001 by the stockmarket's collapse. With house prices lower and credit conditions tighter as a result of the subprime crisis, households can no longer borrow against capital gains to support their spending

Dearer oil is set to squeeze households further (this week's drop in crude prices notwithstanding). Consumer confidence has already fallen sharply. It cannot be long before consumer spending stumbles, which in turn would hurt companies' profits and investment. The weak dollar will boost exports, but at only 12% of GDP, exports are too small to make up for a weakening of consumer spending, which accounts for 70%.
I want to break free

Will an American recession drag the rest of the world down with it? The economies of Europe and Japan rebounded strongly in the third quarter, but look likely to slow down. Although both should be able to keep chugging along, neither is likely to set any great pace. Strengthening currencies will hurt exporters in both places. Europe's own housing hotspots are cooling, and some of its banks have been sideswiped by America's subprime ills.

The best hope that global growth can stay strong lies instead with emerging economies.

Of course, a recession in America would reduce emerging economies' exports, but they are less vulnerable than they used to be. America's importance as an engine of global growth has been exaggerated. Since 2000 its share of world imports has dropped from 19% to 14%. Its vast current-account deficit has started to shrink, meaning that America is no longer pulling along the rest of the world

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10134118
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 04:22 pm
A financial system under siege
By Rodrigue Tremblay

"If these items [promised benefits in Social Security, Medicare, Veterans Administration and other entitlement programs] are factored in, the total [debt] burden in present value dollars is estimated to be about $53 trillion. Stated differently, the estimated current total burden for every American is nearly $175,000; and every day that burden becomes larger." David Walker, comptroller general of the United States

"The economic forces driving the global saving-investment balance have been unfolding over the course of the past decade, so the steepness of the recent decline in long-term dollar yields and the associated distant forward rates suggests that something more may have been at work." --Alan Greenspan, former Fed Chairman, July 20, 2005


Why then are so many banks in financial difficulties, if the lending risk was transferred to unsuspecting investors?

Since noboby knows for sure the value of something which is not traded, it will take months before banks come to terms with the total losses they have suffered in their stocks of unsold pre-packaged "asset-based securities." It is more than a normal "liquidity crisis" or "credit crunch" (which results when banks borrow short-term and invest in illiquid long-term assets); it is more like a "solvency crisis" if the banks' capital base is overtaken by the disclosure of huge financial losses incurred when the banks are forced to sell mortgaged assets in a depressed real estate market.

This is this financial and banking mess which is unfolding under our very eyes and which is threatening the American and international financial system. There are four classes of losers. First, the homebuyers who bought properties at inflated prices with little or no down payment and who now face foreclosure. Second, the investors who bought illiquid mortgage-backed commercial paper and who stand to lose part or all of their investments. Third, the holders of bank stocks who profited when the system worked smoothly but who now face declining stock values. And, finally, anybody who stands to fall victim, directly or indirectly, to the coming economic slowdown."

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2648.shtml
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 06:27 pm
Which isn't everybody by a long chalk.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2007 09:49 pm
Rama's last post is a good one because it speaks to the global market, and the financial institution problems facing not only the US economy but also the world economy.

The economies of Japan, Germany and China depend on the US economy, and that means the biggest portion of the world economy.

America's biggest problem is our debt; it cannot be sustained for the long-term, and our government spending is out of control.

The economic future of the world will slow down considerably, and maybe that's a good thing for the ecology of this planet.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 07:47 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
... our government spending is out of control.


I thought you were an advocate for the expansion of Medicare to the general Public.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 08:30 am
Nah- c.i. is an advocate of saying the first thing that comes into his head. Not having any responsibilities its an indulgence he can easily afford.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 05:41 pm
Miller wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
... our government spending is out of control.


I thought you were an advocate for the expansion of Medicare to the general Public.



Ofcoarse! I believe in a system that combines private insurance with government subsidies for those who can't afford it. There is plenty of dollars to be saved by removing ourselves from Iraq; about 2.7 billion every week.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 06:03 pm
c.i. wrote :

Quote:
There is plenty of dollars to be saved by removing ourselves from Iraq; about 2.7 billion every week.


and the defence and weapons industries would squeal like a stuck pig if that money would stop flowing their way - i'm sure they are working behind the scenes to prevent that from happening .
unfortunately a lot of workers in those industries would lose their jobs if the defence industry would start scaling back rapidly .

it's a bit of a viscious circle . particularly with the subprime mortgage market near collapse , the economy can take only so much stress before showing serious signs of spinning out of control .
as even business leaders and economists have said , propping up the failed sub-prime mortgage market was not the right thing to do . the pain will only increase from the inaction to make early and painful decisions .
watching CNBC , there are many voices warning that the longer the problems are allowed to exist , the more painful and costly it will be to deal with those problems eventually - and they will have to be adresses eventually .
it's like a throbbing tooth : taking painkillers will suppres the pain for a while , but eventually there will have to be a visit to the dentist - by which time it may be too late to save the tooth - OUCH !
hbg
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 04:23 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Miller wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
... our government spending is out of control.


I thought you were an advocate for the expansion of Medicare to the general Public.



Ofcoarse! I believe in a system that combines private insurance with government subsidies for those who can't afford it. There is plenty of dollars to be saved by removing ourselves from Iraq; about 2.7 billion every week.


From Iraq? But that's at least 5 years down the road.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 04:32 pm
Miller I liked it better when you had pictures of Grey's Anatomy actresses in your avatar.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2007 06:28 am
Nobody really knows when the US will be completely removed from Iraq, but it ain't five years. We didn't build that six billion dollar embassy and 14 permanent bases to shuttle ourselves out in five years. All I want to see is a huge reduction in force - like 90 percent.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2007 10:27 am
this article was originally published by the german newsmagazine SPIEGEL (mirror) and was published by BUSINESS WEEK recently .
imo BUSINESS WEEK is a magazine that one better pay attention to - they have in the past been pretty accurate in forcasting what will happen in the world economy .
btw i heard on CNBC this morning that forward oil contracts for june deliveries are being secured at US $ 150 !
hbg

Quote:
November 13, 2007, 12:52PM EST text size: TT

Dollar Crisis: Economic Pearl Harbor?

If China abandons the dollar for the euro, Americans will surely suffer. So far, that prospect has sparked mainly U.S. indignation
by Gabor Steingart

What do Brazilian supermodel Gisele Bündchen and the People's Republic of China have in common? The answer, as of last week, is that both distrust the dollar.

Patricia Bündchen, the twin sister and manager of the world's top model, announced that Gisele now prefers to be paid in euros rather than dollars. Almost simultaneously, the Chinese central bank predicted that the dollar is likely to lose its status as the world's leading currency.

One could easily overlook a supermodel's currency preferences, but China is a different story. It's the beast breathing down America's neck.

The most important country in the world for the United States isn't Great Britain, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Russia or Iraq. China holds that dubious distinction, because it is also the country the US can least do without. Without its willingness to buy an almost unlimited supply of US treasury bonds, there would be no American spending miracle. Without a spending miracle there would be no economic growth. In other words, without China the US superpower would lose a significant share of its economic clout.

So far Beijing has behaved like the benevolent shopkeeper who willingly extends credit to his customers. The Americans receive shipments of Chinese-made television sets, toys and underwear, but the Chinese do not import a comparable volume of US goods. The gap between buying and selling amounts to about $5 billion every week.

The Chinese are satisfied with buying US treasury bonds, partly to keep their most important customer afloat. The central bank in Beijing already holds currency reserves of $1.4 trillion.

The Chinese have looked on with great patience as their best customer has gradually lost its ability to supply goods.

But the men in power in Beijing cannot be indifferent to the dollar's decline. It devalues their central bank's dollar reserves, the monetary embodiment of some of the fruits of China's export machine.

For the United States, a Chinese decision to abandon the dollar would be tantamount to Pearl Harbor without the war. It would represent a challenge to the world's biggest economy by the world's fastest growing economy. Millions of people would see their standard of living suffer as a result, and American self-confidence, already shaky, would crumble even further. The United States would suffer a serious blow on its very own turf, the economy.

Americans can hardly blame Beijing for their troubles. The Chinese aren't exactly kamikaze politicians, concocting some secret plan to attack the dollar. On the contrary, the preparations are taking place in full view. Translated into Texan, what the Chinese politely told the Americans last week simply means: Unless something happens, all hell will break loose.

For years the US economy has suffered one dramatic setback after another. A historic trend reversal began with the rise of the Asian economies -- first Japan, then China and now India. The United States, a once-proud exporting nation, became the world's biggest importer. In only 15 years, from 1992 to 2007, the US balance of trade deficit has surged from $84 billion to $700 billion.

Within a single generation, the world's biggest lender has become its biggest borrower, a circumstance the United States has made no serious attempts to change. And what has been Washington's standard take on the shift? The dollar is our currency, but it's your problem.

Thus, the tone of the US government's callous and thick-skinned reaction to China's announcement last week came as no surprise. There was a reason the dollar became the world's reserve currency, US Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson said in a slightly offended tone.

But the truth is that the United States would be better off if Paulson and the administration of President George W. Bush would take decisive action instead of sulking. The US's ability to deliver goods should be increased and its industrial base should be reinvigorated. Government and consumer spending, which in reality is doing nothing but eating away at the country's future, should be curbed. Although growth would decline as a result, it would be a more sustainable form of growth.

Last week's remark by a Chinese central bank official should be interpreted as a warning, not a threat. Indeed, China has no choice but to respond, given the dollar's ongoing weakness.

For these reasons, an attack on the US economy is probably the most easily predictable event of the coming years. And if it happens, the attacker will even be able to justify its actions as self-defense.

What is the difference between the US government in 1941 and the administration in Washington today? Perhaps there is none. A Japanese attack on the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor was unimaginable, even though US intelligence had picked up clues that it could happen. Washington, at the time, was convinced that the Japanese wouldn't dare stage an attack on a target 5,000 miles away, and that they wouldn't succeed if they did.

The crews on America's ships were sleeping as the Japanese bombers approached Pearl Harbor.



source :
THE FATE OF THE U.S. DOLLAR
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 03:41 pm
Quote:
Economic Pessimism Highest in 17 Years

Pessimism about the economy has jumped to its highest level since November 1990, according to the Washington Post-ABC News Consumer Comfort Index.

Sixty-eight percent of Americans say the economy is getting worse, a 13-percentage-point increase since October, and nearly 30 points above the long-term average for the question. [..]


Quote:
Déjà vu all over again: 1992 revisited

There are continuing - and accelerating -- signs of perceived distress from the American public.

The percentage of Americans who are satisfied with the way things are going in the U.S. is now as low as it has been since the summer of 1992. The percentage of Americans who say the economy is getting worse is the highest Gallup has measured since it started using the current measure - back in 1991. The president's job approval is at 32%, which prior to the current president's ratings this year and last year is the lowest since 1992. Approval of the job Congress (i.e., the people's elected representatives) is doing is at 20%, and prior to this year we have to go back to 1992 to find a time when it has been this low. [..]

For those of use who study such things, there's also a shift evident in the data by which the economy is gradually rising to the point where it is eclipsing Iraq as the population's most important concern. This is probably due to two factors. One, the news from Iraq is better. Two, worries about the economy are beginning to drown out concerns about Iraq. But whatever the cause, this too is beginning to look a lot more like the 1992 environment.

Things were perceived by the average American as so terrible in 1992 that the way was opened for a maverick Texas billionaire to jump into (and then out of and then back into) the presidential race, and ultimately to claim 19% of the popular vote. And, of course, the way was opened for an obscure Arkansas governor to position himself as the hero of the people, both feeling their pain on the economy while shrewdly providing sharp contrast to the incumbent president (born with a "silver spoon in his mouth") who appeared relatively out of touch with what was happened to the nation's common men and women. [..]

Prior to 1992, observers assumed that George H.W. Bush would sail to re-election based on his victorious execution of the first Persian Gulf War. Prior to this year, observers have assumed that the Iraq war and foreign policy could be the central issues of next year's campaign. Those predictions did not come true in 1992, and they might not next year either.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 03:47 pm
by this time next week I plan to re-invest 90,000$ in the market, does that make me an idiot?
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Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2007 03:54 pm
Leaders of the Federal Reserve expect the U.S. economy to slow in 2008 and believe there are higher-than-usual risks that the economy will perform worse than they forecast.

Fed policymakers project the economy to grow 1.6 to 2.6 percent in 2008, according to a range of forecasts they released yesterday.
In June, their 2008 growth forecasts ranged from 2.5 to 3 percent.

"There is still a lot of uncertainty, and they may be hedging their forecast on the downside, anticipating some bad news," said Dean Croushore, a University of Richmond economist who wrote a textbook with Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke.

The forecasts came as other data showed continuing risks to the economy on all sides. Mortgage finance company Freddie Mac reported horrible financial results, exposing the possibility that the housing market will get even worse. Heating oil prices rose to all-time highs on futures markets, as did crude oil (which settled at $98.03 per barrel for January delivery), and the dollar hit an all-time low against the euro. Higher oil prices and a weaker dollar could cause inflation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/20/AR2007112000983.html
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