Hating America may not be so bad after all...

I think you're full of crap.

I have no problem with peaceful, allah-fearing muslims (which is the racism card I think you're playing). The problem comes when they break out in masse with AK-47's, shooting in the air, dancing around like a bunch of deranged idiots, burn our flag and shout "Allah akbar! Death to America".

I don't like those people. I hope they die before they kill me. Does that make me a racist?

It also pisses me off when the do things like fly planes full of innocent passengers into office towers. But, that's just me.

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Cjhsa, your reation is like that of a parent who caught the retaliation of a child and absolutely do not want to hear about or care what caused the retaliation, to make it even more simpler, you are like the referee who don't call a foul that is so easy to see but blow the whistle as soon as the fouled player react.

All the responses to what I have written has been in typical arrogant American fashion, "America does no wrong or is not as wrong as this place or that place "but never fully addressing America's action. There is no card being played, I am pointing out to you and all those who read this that under most circumstance those who have been called haters of America have been called such because of their reaction to American Imperialism, American Racism and American Capatalism. No group of people or nation awoke one morning as said, "I think we should hate America". A cursory glance into their reason for hating America will put those who care to see face to face with American Imperialism, Racism and Capatalism.

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Deal with it.

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Sounds suspiciously like Noah

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Bella Dea wrote:

Francisco D'Anconia wrote:
Bam!! You tell 'em. Bella. But a Spongebob quote? Dunno about that.

The spongbob quote was taken from the signature of someone we recently lost here.

Oh my God, I'm so sorry - I honestly had no idea. I haven't been on A2K for about a year and a half, I'm a little out of touch. I feel really bad now.

Ray - I was overgeneralizing a bit. Attainment of wealth should not be without restraint, or at the expense of another's well-being. Also, I understand that FDR's socialist programs came at a crucial time in financial history, but they're long overdue for an overhaul if not complete elimination.

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...
HofT

Bosnia and Rwanda offer examples of ethnical hate. To me this is racism. The hate of those who are different, who don't belong "to us".

But if you can't accept this, let me remember you of the situation of africans in France, Portugal, Germany, the skinheads, the neonazis. Is that enough for you?

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...

Faheem wrote:

The moment a nation or group of people speak out against American Imperialism, the exploitive nature of American capitalism and American Racism or attack a country that is a better friend of America's ambitions to carry out its Capatalist, Imperialist and Racist agenda they are forever banished into the Hating America Crowd because of its Freedoms. So I conclude Hating America may not be a bad thing after all.

This is a question-framing fallacy. You assume that America is capitalist, imperialist, and racist, and then, on that basis, you posit that hating America is not such a bad thing. That, however, merely assumes that which has yet to be proved: in other words, it begs the question. One might just as well say: "We all agree that Islam is a religion of ignorance and hatred. The question is: what do we do about it?"

Faheem, you want everyone to discuss your conclusion, but your conclusion is based on premises that not everyone is willing to accept. It would be unreasonable, then, to expect everyone to discuss this subject according to your terms if you haven't succeeded in persuading everyone to agree to your terms.

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It is always amusing to see people write or speak about Rwanda who know absolutely nothing about what happen in Rwanda. What happened in Rwanda is far from simple ethnic hate and a cursory glance at the history of the Hutu and Tutsi proves this. To make it short as to what happen in Rwanda without getting into all the details, The Hutu's exacted revenge on the Tutsi's for being the lap dogs of the Belgians during Belgian rule in Rwanda. The Tutsi's participated in the abuse and marginalization of the majority Hutu's to win favor with the Belgians. However when the Belgian's gave up their colonial imperialistic rule in Rwanda they transferred power rightfully so to the majority Hutu and once in Power the Hutu's went after those who helped the racist imperialist oppress them over the years. White folk in America continue to spread the lie that what happen in Rwanda was simple ethnic cleansing or as Ed Koch the former mayor of NY said, ""tribal warfare involving those without the veneer of Western civilization." Ignorance is bliss in the mind of those who subscribe to white supremacy. There is a lesson in what happen in Rwanda for all people who help an external oppressor carry out their racist imperialistic goals on his or her people.

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...

joefromchicago wrote:

Faheem wrote:
The moment a nation or group of people speak out against American Imperialism, the exploitive nature of American capitalism and American Racism or attack a country that is a better friend of America's ambitions to carry out its Capatalist, Imperialist and Racist agenda they are forever banished into the Hating America Crowd because of its Freedoms. So I conclude Hating America may not be a bad thing after all.

This is a question-framing fallacy. You assume that America is capitalist, imperialist, and racist, and then, on that basis, you posit that hating America is not such a bad thing. That, however, merely assumes that which has yet to be proved: in other words, it begs the question. One might just as well say: "We all agree that Islam is a religion of ignorance and hatred. The question is: what do we do about it?"

Faheem, you want everyone to discuss your conclusion, but your conclusion is based on premises that not everyone is willing to accept. It would be unreasonable, then, to expect everyone to discuss this subject according to your terms if you haven't succeeded in persuading everyone to agree to your terms.

Joe from the great city of Chicago, everyone does not have to accept my premise because it is the premise under which those who are accused of hating America operate. Thus, I do not have to prove America is Racist, Imperialistic, and has an oppressive capitalist system, these things are the reasons America is hated. As I stated above; no nation or group of people woke up one morning and said lets hate America. America's Foreign policy and its treatment of these people is what led to them having the view of America that they have. So in no way must everyone accept my premise, but to ignore the arguments of those who are said to hate America and simply conclude that they hate America because America is free and because of its freedoms means that A free America and freedoms in America are equivalent to America's Racist, imperialistic and Capitalistic goals which are the reasons America is hated so much.

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I have a simple question for Joe and all of those that read this, are you willing to accept the truth that no group or nation of people on the earth hates America because it is Free and because of its freedoms? If you are willing to accept this, then we can honestly discuss why there is so much hate for America around the globe. However, if you want to take the ignorant road that they hate America because America is free and have freedoms than you have and continue to equate the reasons they hate America to freedom and a free America. Thus a racist, imperialist and capitalist America = Freedoms in America and a free America.

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Faheem wrote:

I have a simple question for Joe and all of those that read this, are you willing to accept the truth that no group or nation of people on the earth hates America because it is Free and because of its freedoms?

I have no idea why some people hate America. I imagine that there are a few people out there who may truly hate America because it is free and because of its freedoms. I would add, however, that I believe Bush and others are wrong when they suggest that people who hate America hate it for what it is. I'm more inclined to believe, based upon the evidence that I've seen, that, for the most part, people who hate America hate it for what it has done, not for what it is.

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Faheem wrote:

It is always amusing to see people write or speak about Rwanda who know absolutely nothing about what happen in Rwanda. What happened in Rwanda is far from simple ethnic hate and a cursory glance at the history of the Hutu and Tutsi proves this. To make it short as to what happen in Rwanda without getting into all the details, The Hutu's exacted revenge on the Tutsi's for being the lap dogs of the Belgians during Belgian rule in Rwanda. The Tutsi's participated in the abuse and marginalization of the majority Hutu's to win favor with the Belgians. However when the Belgian's gave up their colonial imperialistic rule in Rwanda they transferred power rightfully so to the majority Hutu and once in Power the Hutu's went after those who helped the racist imperialist oppress them over the years. White folk in America continue to spread the lie that what happen in Rwanda was simple ethnic cleansing or as Ed Koch the former mayor of NY said, ""tribal warfare involving those without the veneer of Western civilization." Ignorance is bliss in the mind of those who subscribe to white supremacy. There is a lesson in what happen in Rwanda for all people who help an external oppressor carry out their racist imperialistic goals on his or her people.

Shoooore. Yeah. Right. Rolling Eyes

I don't know how to put this gently, so I won't - you exude ignorance.
Your racistimperialistcapitalist crap is based on the same non-existent premise as the above screed on Rwanda. Ignorance.
Read some history. Read some Rwanda history. Read some Burundi history. Read some history on those peoples currently known as hutus and tutsis.
Their history goes back a wee bit farther than your limited imagination, Faheem.
Where are your people from anyway?
I don't suppose its anyplace where the ethnic majority religiously persecute and murder the ethnic minority - like Libya or Algeria or Iran or Turkey or Saudia Arabia or "Palestine" or Iraq or Syria or Egypt or Sudan or Pakistan... is it?

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joefromchicago wrote:

Faheem wrote:
I have a simple question for Joe and all of those that read this, are you willing to accept the truth that no group or nation of people on the earth hates America because it is Free and because of its freedoms?

I have no idea why some people hate America. I imagine that there are a few people out there who may truly hate America because it is free and because of its freedoms. I would add, however, that I believe Bush and others are wrong when they suggest that people who hate America hate it for what it is. I'm more inclined to believe, based upon the evidence that I've seen, that, for the most part, people who hate America hate it for what it has done, not for what it is.

That is a start Joe, Admitting that those who hate America hate is based on something other than so called hatred of a free America and its freedoms opens the door for a real discussion around the cause of that hatred.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Faheem wrote:
It is always amusing to see people write or speak about Rwanda who know absolutely nothing about what happen in Rwanda. What happened in Rwanda is far from simple ethnic hate and a cursory glance at the history of the Hutu and Tutsi proves this. To make it short as to what happen in Rwanda without getting into all the details, The Hutu's exacted revenge on the Tutsi's for being the lap dogs of the Belgians during Belgian rule in Rwanda. The Tutsi's participated in the abuse and marginalization of the majority Hutu's to win favor with the Belgians. However when the Belgian's gave up their colonial imperialistic rule in Rwanda they transferred power rightfully so to the majority Hutu and once in Power the Hutu's went after those who helped the racist imperialist oppress them over the years. White folk in America continue to spread the lie that what happen in Rwanda was simple ethnic cleansing or as Ed Koch the former mayor of NY said, ""tribal warfare involving those without the veneer of Western civilization." Ignorance is bliss in the mind of those who subscribe to white supremacy. There is a lesson in what happen in Rwanda for all people who help an external oppressor carry out their racist imperialistic goals on his or her people.

Shoooore. Yeah. Right.
I don't know how to put this gently, so I won't - you exude ignorance.
Your racistimperialistcapitalist crap is based on the same non-existent premise as the above screed on Rwanda. Ignorance.
Read some history. Read some Rwanda history. Read some Burundi history. Read some history on those peoples currently known as hutus and tutsis.
Their history goes back a wee bit farther than your limited imagination, Faheem.
Where are your people from anyway?
I don't suppose its anyplace where the ethnic majority religiously persecute and murder the ethnic minority - like Libya or Algeria or Iran or Turkey or Saudia Arabia or "Palestine" or Iraq or Syria or Egypt or Sudan or Pakistan... is it?

Moise3rd, if anyone here is showing their ignorance it is you. I have written extensively about Rwanda and the history of the Hutu, Tutsi and the TWA people. I know how far back their history goes, I know about how they related to one another prior to their contemporary relationships, I know and understand that the difference between an Hutu and a Tutsi was classed based and one could start life off as a Hutu and end life as a Tutsi and I know that it was not uncommon for their to be marriage between a Hutu and Tutsi. It is only when the European Colonialist Imperialist came in and exacerbated the difference between these two people and the Twa people did the hatred amongst them grow to the contemporary fervor that we see today.. You like many folk I have seen comment on Rwanda have absolutely no idea about its history or the history of the Rwandan people.

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Faheem wrote:

That is a start Joe, Admitting that those who hate America hate is based on something other than so called hatred of a free America and its freedoms opens the door for a real discussion around the cause of that hatred.

Admit? I made no admission. It was merely an observation.

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...

val wrote:

HofT

Bosnia and Rwanda offer examples of ethnical hate. To me this is racism. The hate of those who are different, who don't belong "to us".

Joe from Chicago - consider the above example of technical illiteracy (there's no such word as "ethnical"), gross misrepresentation of facts bordering on calumny (see previous posts of person in which person argues "racism", whereas it's an unarguable fact that all parties in Bosnia were genetically Southern Slavs, i.e. racially indistinguishable) and / or stupidity of poster (the last refuge of politically correct liars being they're mentally "different") and show some tolerance towards Faheem, who at least does freely state that his basic premises are a matter of religious faith by definition impervious to any logical argument.

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...

HofT wrote:

val wrote:
HofT

Bosnia and Rwanda offer examples of ethnical hate. To me this is racism. The hate of those who are different, who don't belong "to us".

Joe from Chicago - consider the above example of technical illiteracy (there's no such word as "ethnical"), gross misrepresentation of facts bordering on calumny (see previous posts of person in which person argues "racism", whereas it's an unarguable fact that all parties in Bosnia were genetically Southern Slavs, i.e. racially indistinguishable) and / or stupidity of poster (the last refuge of politically correct liars being they're mentally "different") and show some tolerance towards Faheem, who at least does freely state that his basic premises are a matter of religious faith by definition impervious to any logical argument.

Where have I mentioned anything about Religion? Religion has not been a part of this discussion. My arguements are pure logic and open to all scrutiny from those who disagree with it.

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Faheem - may I amend my wording: you're correct you never mentioned "religion". You did mention that your (3) assumptions aren't subject to discussion, however, so they presumably must be taken on faith.

It is in that sense that I agreed with Joe of Chicago. Thanks.

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http://oceanlink.island.net/onews/oceannews6/images/trolling%20centre.jpg

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HofT wrote:

Faheem - may I amend my wording: you're correct you never mentioned "religion". You did mention that your (3) assumptions aren't subject to discussion, however, so they presumably must be taken on faith.

It is in that sense that I agreed with Joe of Chicago. Thanks.

Maybe you missed the point when I said why the three points were not open for discussion, thus I will try to explain it to you once more.

Here is what we do know, those nations and groups of people around the globe and many people in the US decry American Imperialism, Racism and its exploitive capitalist system. However, rather than hearing the arguments of men and women who speak to America's problems in the aforementioned three area's, the jingoist say of them, they hate America because America is free and because of freedoms in America thus equating the three aforementioned reasons that America is hated with a free America and freedoms in America. This is not hard to understand. Even someone like Pat Buchanan who is a committed Capitalist and holds many Racist beliefs wrote about this very thing and mentions it often when he is interviewed.

I also wrote above that if any of you and this includes you HofT, are willing to agree or admit the truth no group or nation of people on the earth hates America because it is Free and because of its freedoms and that their hatred of America is derived from things America has done and continue to do, then we can have an honest discussion. The so-called enemy of America says that they hate America because it is Imperialistic, Racist and Capitalistic, and Americans say they hate America because it is free and because of its freedoms. These things must be one in the same in the eyes of the Americans being that the charges by the so-called enemy of America are never addressed and are refuted by saying America is hated because it is free and because of its freedoms.

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Hating America may not be so bad after all...

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