Hating America may not be so bad after all...

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In trying to understand the rationale behind how the President and his minions can conclude that spending billions of dollars a month to secure freedom for Iraqi's while cutting well over 150 social programs here in the U.S. is the right thing to do, I fixated on the language used in the rationale. The one thing the capitalist racist imperialist seek to do is maintain the order under which they attain their wealth while looking for means to attain more wealth. It is often said that a free Iraq is good for a free America and this rationale also gives support to the Idea that those who attacks and attacked America attack America because of its freedoms. You see there is no difference between the use of the word free in the phrase "a free America" and the use of the word freedom in the phrase "they attack America because of its freedoms".

A free America means that America is free to do as it pleases as a Capitalist Imperialist and Racist nation and to attack America because of these things is an attack on the Freedom of/in America. Thus Freedom of/in America is defined by Capitalism Imperialism and Racism and an attack on any of these things or a discussion about any of these things being practiced and carried out by America is an Attack on "a free America and the Freedom of America to behave as it does in regards to these things.

This also explains why when discussing these things those on the right and a great majority of whites who benefit from these things say that we are bashing America, or that we hate America. Any opposition to Capitalism, Imperialism and Racism as practiced in America is an attack on Freedom and demonstrates that one hates America. How did this come to be? When did freedom in/of America and a Free America become synonymous with Imperialism, Capitalism and Racism?

In short, these things have always been the definition of the Freedom of/in America and a free America. A cursory glance at history proves this, but it is easily seen today during this war that the rationale behind and the relationship between these things is the determining factor in who is a friend of America and who is an enemy of America. As long as you are helping in America's imperialist capitalist and Racist cause you are a friend regardless of your own transgression in your nation i.e. Saudi Arabia oppression of women, Current Oppression in China and various hoodlums in South America not to mention Saddams antics of old. The moment a nation or group of people speak out against American Imperialism, the exploitive nature of American capitalism and American Racism or attack a country that is a better friend of America's ambitions to carry out its Capatalist, Imperialist and Racist agenda they are forever banished into the Hating America Crowd because of its Freedoms. So I conclude Hating America may not be a bad thing after all.

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You keep saying that America is Capitalist, Imperialist, and Racist. Maybe you're right, but...

First of all, is there anything really wrong with capitalism? I see nothing wrong with attempting to become wealthier. And the removal of the social programs here in America does nothing, in my mind, but create more independence on the part of the individual here in America, which I see as a good a thing.

Next, there's the issue of Imperialism. Unless I am mistaken (please correct me if I am wrong) there has been no real imperialistic actions taken by America since about 60 years ago, with the annexation of Hawaii. If you're referring to the 'nationbuilding' that we've done with Afghanistan and are attempting with Iraq, we've done nothing there except overthrown horrible totalitarian regimes that have oppressed the majorities and placed the power in the hands of the people (or tried, at least).

Racist? The argument grinds to a screeching halt here. America is in no way racist, and support of America is in no way support of racism. Granted, there are groups of people in America that are racist, but that does not reflect the opinions of the masses. And before you throw the argument of 'why has there been no president that has not been a rich white man' at me, allow me to counter it by saying that the people have elected white male presidents, and to deny them that would be to eliminate the democratic process of this country. When the hispanics or blacks or orientals or whomever becomes the majority and elects a president of the same ethnicity, good for them. American policy does not prevent this from happening next election! It's all about the majority. Racism as an American policy is a myth.

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America? Racist? Yeah ok. That's why we let anyone and their brother from every other country and nationality in to become a US citizen. Man it must be bad here since everyone wants to come here.....

American's can be racists, but to generalize the country as racist? I can think of a lot of other countries who dislike people simply because of their nationality.

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Bam!! You tell 'em. Bella. But a Spongebob quote? Dunno about that.

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I don't think what you stated in your title is correct, and I don't think that what the American people think of freedom is what you stated, although I will not comment on what the Bush administration is implying when they use the word freedom. There are many people in the U.S. alone that are against the actions of the current administration, and they do not consider themselves to be "American-haters" and I do not think that other people in general would call them haters of their own country.

As for America being called racist, I don't like racism and compared to other countries around the world, the U.S. is one of the least racist countries out there, not to mention that racism is thought of as negative in the nation (rightly so).

Quote:

First of all, is there anything really wrong with capitalism? I see nothing wrong with attempting to become wealthier. And the removal of the social programs here in America does nothing, in my mind, but create more independence on the part of the individual here in America, which I see as a good a thing.

Francisco, I disagree with your statement. Looking back on the past century, the attempt to get richer is the source of many atrocities. Nations that desire to gain more wealth and power, in their pursue of "autarky", invaded and exploited the populations that they conquered. Indeed, Hitler's want for Lebensraum, the money that the Nazis forced away from the Jews, Mussolini's invasion, Japanese aggression, are all sources of atrocities manifested by the want to get wealthier and more powerful, for wealth for them come hand in hand with their desire for power.

I do think you are over-simplifying things. The absence of social programs did not help America in times of depression. Hoover, a hardcore "Laise-faire" politician did little to even try to improve the people's well-being. Keynesian theory states to "spend the money". This is what Roosevelt's action reflected and his programs, although it did not produce a dramatic effect, did help at least some of the people and at least tried to end the depression.

I understand that you are porbably a follower of Rand? (Is that a picture from Atlas Shrugged? :wink: ) I don't agree with Rand.

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Francisco D'Anconia wrote:

Bam!! You tell 'em. Bella. But a Spongebob quote? Dunno about that.

Fran, you should leave the spongebob quote alone, you're probably too new here to know this but it's dedicated to someone who used to post on this forum and it's likely to be a touchy issue.

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...
Hating America? How can a reasonable person hate a multitude of different persons, hate the lakes and mountains, the cities and the villages, the music and the poetry? And that is what a country is.

Hate America because of racism? Yes, there is racism in America. But do you think Europe is better? Remember Bosnia. And Africa? Remember Ruanda.

I am not american. But I don't hate America - although I don't love it.
But racism is universal, capitalism almost universal. I think that if you take thinks too seriously, you must hate all the human race. I think that is the position of antibuddha, and I respect it.

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...

val wrote:

I think that if you take things too seriously, you must hate all the human race. I think that is the position of antibuddha, and I respect it.

*Bows* A neat summation of my opinion. Though I also love all the human race...

Half the reason I hate it is for its incredible potential that it fails to live up to.

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...
antibuddha

My opinion is that you are a very intelligent and original mind. I know you don't need my opinion. But I would like to discuss, in another topic, your position about human race.

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I don't think it's America that a lot of people hate, it's the American government that they have a problem with.

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...

val wrote:

Yes, there is racism in America. But do you think Europe is better? Remember Bosnia. And Africa? Remember Ruanda.

Some facts wouldn't come amiss in this litany:

1. All parties in the Bosnian conflicts were genetically indistinguishable Slavs.
2. All parties in the Tutsi-Hutu massacres in Rwanda were African blacks.

If the statement about racism in America is based on similarly erroneous assumptions perhaps the poster could re-examine that also.

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Hi Helen

just saying hello

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Re: Hating America may not be so bad after all...

val wrote:

antibuddha

My opinion is that you are a very intelligent and original mind. I know you don't need my opinion. But I would like to discuss, in another topic, your position about human race.

I am confident, occasionally to the point of arrogance but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a compliment or need the input of others to help my opinions grow from the stasis they would be in if it were just for me.

I have a high opinion of you as well, though we don't always agree precisely. I would love a discussion of my opinions since it's bound to change them. Not necessarily to be the same as yours, but it'll certainly provoke me to deeper thought.

Hmmm... I'll come up with a way of posing the question and create a new thread regarding the human race. I'll post a link when I do, but I've got a few more replies to do for the next few minutes.

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Francisco D'Anconia wrote:

Bam!! You tell 'em. Bella. But a Spongebob quote? Dunno about that.

The spongbob quote was taken from the signature of someone we recently lost here.

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Montana wrote:

I don't think it's America that a lot of people hate, it's the American government that they have a problem with.

I agree wiht you there. It is political policy and whatnot. And of course, the trickle down is that the American people elect the officials. So we must be evil too.

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Val, your topic is prepared.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46725

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I think when we hate, it is usually ourselves we are hating, in a projected form. And I think it is true, on a certain level, that we tend to become what we hate - especially if we do it in an obsessive way.

Sure - there is much to criticise America for - as with any country - but hatred is an emotion that damages the one who hates, generally.

I guess I hate it.....

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Missing the point!
Ray appears to be the only person that came close to responding to what I wrote versus trying to deny America is a capitalist racist imperialist nation. These things do not need to be debated at this juncture in American history they are forgone conclusion thus the idea of debating if America is a capitalist, racist and imperialist nation is an exercise in futility.

The overall point was to point out; when one is accused of hating America look at what it is they are actually in opposition to. Just as Val noted it is unreasonable to hate a multitude of different people, lakes and mountains thus when a group of people or a nation is accused of being anti-American, or said to hate America there must be a deeper investigation into what it is that they actually hate and I can say without contradiction you will find that anyone accused of hating America hates America for one of the three reason I pointed out, American Imperialism, American Racism and American exploitive Capitalist system. Only those whom benefits from these three things try to deny their existence and it being the reason America is disliked all over the Globe.

Show me anyone who is said to hate America and I will show you a man or woman that has spoken out against America for one of the three reason I noted. Thus if we are to believe America is hated because it is "free" and because of its "Freedoms" than the logical conclusion would mean that "a Free" America and "Freedom in America" is defined by Imperialism, Racism and American Capatalism.

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Steve - saying hello back!

Am not often in this site, but can always be reached at my old yahoo address (N34_W118) which I know you had from back when. You do know Ethel's Cafe is now Lola's on this site?

Faheem - if your ex cathedra pronouncements "do not need to be debated" it's a wonder you bother posting them on a discussion forum at all. Try printing them on fliers or start a blog.

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HofT, what I wrote is far from ex-cathedra and yet you still miss the point. I have logically laid out why and how I concluded what I have cocluded in regards to what "A free America" and "Freedoms in America" mean in regards to how those who have a problem with or is said to hate America are said to be haters of a Free America and Freedoms in America.

We can debate rather or not America is a Racist Imperialist Capatalist nation but then that would be like many of the other discussion on this forum. The key is, those who are said to hate America; hate America for the very reason I listed and those who defend America say of them that they hate America because it is free and have freedoms which means that they are equating Racism, Imperialism and American Capatalism with A free America and Freedoms in America.

Is that so hard to understand?

BTW, I do have a BLOG.

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Hating America may not be so bad after all...

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