Abortion is immoral. Period.

Our Country starts wars that ends lives but I don't see any uproar how that's immoral.

You don't? I do. I saw quite a bit of uproar over the Iraq war (maybe because I was in the middle of the protests).

There are quite a few people who oppose abortion, capital punishment, poverty and war. see these guys
http://www.evangelicalsforsocialaction.org/being-completely-pro-life/

Not all the world fits into ideological bubbles.

I was too busy trying to stay alive during Operation Enduring Freedom to be all that concerned to protest, but go ahead and think you're morally superior.

Had stuff to do, but didn't want to leave this hanging out there...

Do you think the majority of legislators should have to agree to a law before it is passed?

What happens when they make a law that offends your morality? Or, what about a state referendum that goes against your moral code?

Ugh, I have a early morning. I will be back in a couple days.

Well played Neptune.... that was a cute trick.

- You made the point that "our country starts wars" but that you "don't see any uproar".
- I pointed out that you are incorrect, there has been uproar about wars, and that many people oppose war and abortion (a position I think is logically consistant).
- You then tell me I am being "morally superior".

All games aside, it is true that there are people who are consistent about being pro-life; they oppose abortion, capital punishment, and war while supporting immigrants, social justice and programs for the poor.

I respect this position.

I don't get your point McGentrix (and I thought it was obvious that I was being flippant with that post).

We have a system of government that makes laws. Sometimes I am happy with the results, sometimes I am not. I have one vote which I exercise religiously. I talk to my legislators about issues that interest me. I have testified in front of a committee in the State legislature about the issue with which I am very much involved. When I am motivated enough, I get out and protest.

I also accept that on any issue, there are Americans on the other side who feel just as passionately as I do. I respect their right to participate in our shared democracy.

I don't really know what you are getting at other than that.

I, in turn, pointed out you were a bystander, not having a vested interest in global conflict that could potentially end your life. It's much more personal when it's actually happening to you versus some one judging from the sidelines.

Live it, then tell me how your life goes from there.

I respect that, Neptune.

You don't respect anything. You spew **** and expect people to swallow it down. You've made it a habit to be condescending to women, reproductive rights and now to the people's right to choose their own destiny.

I don't even think you believe in the stuff you're posting, posturing for the sake of being difficult because you can.

I don't think that is fair Neptune. I have presented my points rationally without attacking you. Let me summarize the points.

1. Abortion is a difficult issue because it involves the ending of a life. People who are against abortion believe that this ends a human life making it an immoral act. There is no objective way to determine at what point human life. Because of this, it is a moral issue that is difficult to resolve.

2. The women and men on the other side of the abortion issue are human beings, citizens and are exercising the same rights that you are to fight for their beliefs. Their purpose is to "protect life". The claims that these women and men "hate women" are personal attacks that completely miss the point.

3. Our society makes laws that restrict what we can do based on a societal sense of morality. If we return to a time where there are laws against abortion, these laws are not unique in the sense that they restrict what people living in society can do with their bodies. There are many such laws that tell us what we can do with our bodies including bans on selling our own kidneys, using drugs, and selling or buying sex.

You can make your points rationally, without attacking people who disagree with you.

I, too have presented my points rationally. You stick to the same verbiage, abortion is immoral.

1. If you feel abortion isn't right for YOU, fine, don't have one. There is a scientific point at which human life is viable outside its host. It's not an arbitrary thought or number, it's fact.

2. My purpose is to "protect life" as well. All lives, not just the moral ones. How does that miss ANY point?

3. Many laws do not restrict personal freedoms. If you want to drink alcohol, just don't drive. It's a reasonable law. The "right to lifers" also restrict access to health care and birth control which makes it an unreasonable way to control one's own body.

How is an expression of one side of the issue a word game?

A fetus is a part of a woman's body. A fetus is not a part of your body. You forget your place. But you're right about it being a disagreement over values. You value your right to interfere in the life processes of another person. I don't.

We disagree on your point #1. It is an arbitrary decision to state life begins at viability. There is also a practical problem with defining it that way ... as science advances this date gets earlier and earlier.

I accept your point #2. It is valid.

I don't understand why your point #3 is relevant. It seems obvious, but I don't see why it matters. When we as a society decide that something is immoral, we often pass laws to prohibit it

The question is whether a fetus is a human life. If a fetus is a human being, then ending its life is a rather drastic "interference in the life process of another person".

I strongly disagree with this statement (after some thought). A fetus is its own special being, not a part of a woman's body. My wife and I saw our daughter as her own person from the first time we heard her heartbeat.

When my daughter was a fetus, less than the size of a pencil eraser, she already had her name. She had her own heart that we could see beating, and she had her nervous center that not much longer would react on its own to stimulus. We did not see her as a "growth". We saw her as a human being from the very beginning of the pregnancy.

I believe that most parents feel the same.

Then whose body is the fetus part of?

If you don't approve of a woman deciding not to carry her pregnancy to full term, then don't do what she does. And if it really bothers you, don't associate with any woman who makes that decision. But don't attempt to take control over another person's body. If you believe that a fetus is a seperate being, then be there to take possession of the fetus after an abortion and see how that works out.

The fetus isn't a part of anyone's body. It is attached to a woman's body, but that doesn't make it a part of a woman's body. Ask any mother or father at what point in their pregnancy they started thinking of their child as an independent being. You will find that usually it is very early in the pregnancy that parents consider their babies to be independent beings with their own names, heartbeats and even personalities.

I think we all agree that it is reasonable to pass laws to protect the life of human beings. The big question is whether a fetus counts as a human being. This turns out to be a very difficult question to answer.

There's no reasoning with that kind of reasoning.

Find a pregnant woman, and ask her if she views the baby growing inside of her as "part of her body". Would any mothers here would like to tell me that I am wrong about this...

I don't think you are making a valid point.

I don't think that you are making a valid point. Like it or not, a fetus is part of a woman's body until it isn't.