Abortion is immoral. Period.

@livinglava,

Instead of revising how or when to restrict abortion rights, the focus should be on more preventative measures to make sure no one has to face the issue of an unwanted pregnancy.

Starting with sex education, condoms, healthcare prescription birth control and the morning after pill, all can be an effective way to not have a divisive issue at the forefront of human rights, let alone women's reproductive rights.

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@neptuneblue,

Quote:

Instead of revising how or when to restrict abortion rights, the focus should be on more preventative measures to make sure no one has to face the issue of an unwanted pregnancy.

If you believed that abortion was taking a human life, you would want to do both. There is no reason why you can't ban something that you consider to be inherently immoral at the same time you work to prevent it.

Take slavery, for example. I strongly support the continuing efforts to prevent the economic and political circumstances that allow slavery to continue. This doesn't mean that I don't also strongly believe in the outright ban on slavery.

You can do both.

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@maxdancona,

Banning abortion doesn't stop it from happening, it only makes getting one unsafe and illegal.

Right now, we have insurance companies who refuse to pay for birth control, pharmacists who can refuse to dispense a legal prescription for birth control and businesses who refuse to even offer birth control coverage as part of their overall healthcare employee benefit package.

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@neptuneblue,

It is two different issues. Banning slavery doesn't it stop it from happening.

You can argue the merits of either issue. But it is not valid to conflate them.

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@maxdancona,

I'm glad to see you can tell the difference between abortion and slavery, considering this discussion isn't even about owning human beings. Maybe a discussion for another post...

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@neptuneblue,

You are missing the point completely Neptune.

To many people, the abortion issue is about killing human beings. You are completely dismissing the fact that this is an issue of life and death. Many people see this as innocent lives being lost.

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@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

the focus should be on more preventative measures to make sure no one has to face the issue of an unwanted pregnancy.

that's definitely where I'd like to see the focus

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@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

Right now, we have insurance companies who refuse to pay for birth control, pharmacists who can refuse to dispense a legal prescription for birth control and businesses who refuse to even offer birth control coverage as part of their overall healthcare employee benefit package.

we don't see too much of this in Canada but we are seeing significant pushback against really good, thorough sex ed. I find that troubling.

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@ehBeth,

The problem isn't that we have these culture "wars".

The problem is the unwillingness of those on the left to accept the humanity of the people on the other side.

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The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty striking.

If someone starts a thread on a liberal ideological belief, people get very upset if someone comes to question it. In fact they get indignant and start yelling insults (this includes people on this very thread).

This is a thread that was clearly started with a pro-life point of view. And yet the same people are here to do what on other threads they call "trolling". I am not even arguing the pro-life side... I am simply suggesting that maybe there are valid points on both sides of the issue, and that trying to understand more than one point of view is sometimes helpful. This is enough to upset people.

It is all about having politically correct opinions.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The problem isn't that we have these culture "wars".

The problem is the unwillingness of those on the left to accept the humanity of the people on the other side.

Well, when "humanity's" morals only consider their viewpiont as the ONLY viewpoint, there's always going to be this human to have morals to say I have the right to choose the morals that's right for me.

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@neptuneblue,

I think the time for that has passed. Liberals have promised for decades that less restrictions will result in people taking responsibility for themselves, but what actually happens is that the more leeway is given, the more abuses happen. This is true of all addictive pleasures, including recreational drug use, sex, etc. The problem is that people take advantage of these addictive-pleasures to control others. E.g. drug dealers seek to control users to get money from them, and some people use sex to hook partners and ensure they don't lose interest in the relationship. I think the more restrictions there are on abortion, the more seriously people will take it that they need to avoid sex unless their planning to make a baby.

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@maxdancona,

It's not so much that there are valid points on both sides; it's that this is a perennial issue that's been going on since the beginning of human history. There is tension between supporting life and controlling it so it doesn't get out of hand. There are negative pressures against population growth, migration, etc. and birth-control plus abortion is how some people want to deal with those pressures. Others want to give everyone a shot at life, and they want abstinence, the traditional method for avoiding pregnancy, to gain ground.

The problem is what other methods of controlling life will gain ground if abortion is illegal but people still don't abstain to prevent pregnancies? Will population growth accelerate, and if so how will we deal with growing numbers of people? Can we accommodate them economically? Can we reach a point where population growth is self-regulating without abortions taking place? Is that even possible?

1 Reply

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

. Liberals have promised for decades that less restrictions

interesting take on things as it's traditionally been conservatives/republicans who have spoken against government intervention in people's lives/decisions

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@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

The problem is what other methods of controlling life will gain ground if abortion is illegal but people still don't abstain to prevent pregnancies?

my high school teachers in the 1970's didn't think promoting abstinence was a useful or meaningful way to prevent pregnancy. their fairly consistent message was that there was nothing wrong with wanting/needing to express our sexual urges, and that we should know about multiple birth control options. there were history and math teachers finding ways to sneak knowledge of the options into their classes, as well as home ec and social studies instructors. not sure where things backslid so badly.

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@livinglava,

Geez LivingLava. I am trying to stand up for you by telling liberals that they should listen to where you have valid concerns, and you you have to stab me in back. I happen to be one of those people who enjoy sex very much... and don't want to have anymore children. Of course, I also have the knowledge and resources to prevent my sexual activities from producing children.

If you tell me that I can't have sex for fun, you have lost my support. If you tell me that I should be very careful to not have a pregnancy that I don't want, I will listen.

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I think the pro-life movement has a point when they focus on life. It is a fact that abortion stops a beating heart, the real question is how we as a society define human life. This is not a factual question, it is a question of values.

Part of my family calls itself consistently pro-life. They are anti-abortion and anti-war. They are anti-capital punishment. They support programs to address poverty and help migrants. I have a great deal of respect for this point of view.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

my high school teachers in the 1970's didn't think abstinence was a useful or meaningful way to prevent pregnancy.

This is where liberal political ideology gets ridiculous. Abstinence is 100% effective in preventing pregnancy. There are millions of people who choose to be abstinent through their early twenties. Not a single one of them has been pregnant.

It is possible to teach abstinence while also providing access to birth control, something that is appropriate (and probably necessary) in a modern Western cultual context. When this American viewpoint is pushed onto other non-Western cultures, I think it causes ethical problems.

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@maxdancona,

So, we acknowledge that the pro-life side values life and for you this is a valid point. What do we do with this assertion in regard to the safe and legal availability of abortion?

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@InfraBlue,

I don't think I understand the question. You can disagree with someone about one without demonizing or mischaracterizong them about the other.

I have no problem with someone promoting a position of safe, legal and rare.

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Abortion is immoral. Period.

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