Abortion is immoral. Period.

What a well thought-out and well explained reply (not).

It is completely thought out and very well explained.

It is also very dismissive of whatever points you are trying to make, which is all that your post deserves.

That's something to think about. Having said that, make up, clothing options, hair removal, professional educational and employment choices could also all fall under the hedonistic view that it only serves men's interests. Again, I reject that theory and choose to remain sexually active on my own terms.

I agree with you. Honoring nature and going with artificiality are two different directions on a continuum. Michel Foucault writes in a postscript at the end of the book, The History of Sexuality, that men in ancient Rome had the right to terminate the lives of their slaves and children if they deemed it necessary.

"For a long time, one of the characteristic privileges of sovereign power was the right to decide life and death. In a formal sense, it derived no doubt from the ancient patria potestas that granted the father of the Roman family the right to "dispose" of the life of his children and his slaves; just as he had given them life, so he could take it away."
(Foucault, M: History of Sexuality vol. 1 p135)

This is arguably an extreme precursor for the right of a woman to arbitrarily terminate a pregnancy. Roe v Wade sets a boundary beyond which the fetus/baby can no longer be terminated. This boundary is sometimes challenged by raising debate over 'partial birth abortions.'

In the future, pro-choice may evolve further to expand the boundaries of euthanasia to include babies that are viable outside the womb and maybe also unwanted children, the elderly, the homeless, etc. If so, should the requirements for anesthesia prior to euthanizing procedures be strengthened? Currently, I don't think there is any requirement for abortions to anesthetize the fetus prior to dismemberment/removal, only the mother. Do you think it will be possible to at least regulate this aspect of abortion, or would abortionists favor denying that the fetus feels anything? A worm may cringe when getting poked with a hook, but a fetus feels nothing, right?

There's a few schools of thought on that.

When a pregnant woman receives anesthesia, then through the umbilical cord, the fetus receives it too. So the pain receptors could be turned off and a sense of euphoria may ensue. I don't know, I'm not a medical practitioner, nor have I researched the subject.

There's also the thought that even though a fetus feels pain, it's incidental and minute.

There's already the Hemlock Society that believes in a dignified end of life through artificial means. Assisted suicide has been around for quite a few years now so there's that to look into. If homeless people choose that option then it may have to be more stringently regulated.

I think you're stretching though. My version of a pro choice decision only describes adult people of sound mind controlling their own bodies. Euthanizing unwanted live birth children is beyond that scope.

GMOs are not some demon creations automatically risk people's lives--that's just contemporary superstition. The biggest danger from GMOs, some of them, are, possibly environmental. Even that is in dispute. A longer lefe expectancy for Europeans and Canadians is very likely a result of universal health care.

I think more research is needed into fetal development and stimulus-response. As for pain being incidental and minute, idk. It's easy to assume the fetus is less-developed and therefore less sensitive, but smaller size doesn't equal less sensitivity. In fact, more dense concentrations of nerves are more sensitive than nerve arrays that are more spread out through tissue.

But assuming euthanasia with anesthesia can be justified in some cases, is unwanted pregnancy really a justification? If the only issue was the mother's body, surely she could make it through nine months of pregnancy for the sake of protecting the baby.

What I really think it's about is preventing a human life and all the baggage that comes with that. People are afraid of everything from having to raise a child and deal with a family member they don't really want to overpopulation. If that is the issue, then the question is whether euthanasia is a legitimate way to deal with the burden of human life.

That also connects to the issue of homelessness you mentioned, or disabilities or whatever. These are burdensome aspects of life and if you start giving people the green light to take the easy way out, how far does that go before people muster the courage and resolve to brave struggles instead of giving up?

Do you think that human life can be completely motivated by desire and preference and anyone who feels like giving up and dying whenever they don't feel like doing something or don't want to go on can just choose euthanasia? Do you see any problem with that ethic of surrendering to death growing and gaining ground as a cultural practice?

As if the lack of the option of euthanasia means a person has to face their struggles...

Given how you can make laws to dictate the manner and circumstances in which euthanasia might be considered as an option, I think that would be preferable to what people resort to now, which is suicide.

And there's no punishment in the world that can prevent suicide: if a person truly wants to die, they can always find a way. Often, that way traumatizes others, including their family and friends.

Right, and there is no law against abortion that can prevent people from doing that on their own either. Still, I see it as a problem when you legalize something immoral because you can't stop people from doing it. The purpose of laws is to send a clear message and deter people. Hopefully, as a result some people will see the light and avoid breaking the law; but of course others won't and they will destroy their lives and others' as a result. All the law really does is implore them to see the light and avoid wasting their life by offering consequences that are slightly less harsh than the ones that naturally result from the criminal actions.

The problem nowadays is that modern medicine has developed methods for sanitizing the consequences of immorality to the point where criminal justice seems harsh in comparison. We imagine sterile, pain-free abortions with no psychological consequences. Ask yourself if you know the story of how you were conceived by your parents? If you do, and you consider this a meaningful part of your life history, what does it do to someone who has an abortion to think about their own moment of conception and then realize they aborted someone else's opportunity to reflect on theirs? Sure, it's easy to avoid any and all psychological consequences with denial and/or by taking drugs or therapy; but don't people realize at some level that sex is love-making and love-making is part of creating a relationship that forms the basis for raising a child with a sense of personal life-history? These things are all naturally integrated processes if you allow them to be, but once you start disconnecting them and perverting their natural functions, you undermine the basic integrity of human existence.

If you're insinuating that a medical procedure should NOT be in sterile, clean conditions, well that's just wrong. What, is a barn a more appropriate place for you? And yes, anesthesia is provided for a D&C. I don't see a problem with that as it allows the physician to do his job with a minimal amount of movement from the patient.

It's a decision that a lot of time is spent thinking about available options and as a result, the decision is to end the pregnancy. And, that decision stays with that woman the rest of her life. To say there isn't any psychological consequences isn't reality.

Not all sex is "love-making" and "forms the basis for raising a child with a sense of personal life-history." Having been married the majority of my adult life, there's plenty of times where I fucked the **** out my husband with absolutely NO thought about raising ANOTHER child with him.

A part of human existence is to be sexual. If there's a limitation on sex to only have it when procreation HAS to be a result, that's really undermining our ability to BE human, which sets us apart from the animal kingdom.

Bottom line is it sounds like you care more about sexual pleasure than preventing pregnancy. I think we are headed for a war between liberals/hedonists and those of us who have been through liberal/hedonism and realized the evil of it. It sucks to listen to people like you flaunt pleasure you have that other people can't have because we have consciences. You don't understand that it goes beyond choice. It has to do with some people enduring discipline and repression to avert moral consequences while other act like they aren't even causing any harm.

the perfect post so far.

Well, I guess the civil gloves are off.

see the third paragraph of your last post above to see where that started.

Do you feel repressed?

I promote the use of birth control. In fact I said this two pages ago:

"But you're also negating the women that have an active libido and WANT to have sex. In which case, procreation is the furthest from any body's mind. Precautions with birth control and condoms can mitigate pregnancy and transmittable diseases. What you're saying is parenthood is the first thought for why people have sex, and I reject that notion."

But you want to argue absurdity. If hedonism is having copious amount of sex because for no other reason is that I CAN, well, 99% (my estimate, no factual backing) of Americans including conservatives and Republicans fall into that category.

Now you seem to be twisting the conversation to say the people who engage in sex other than procreative reasons are somehow not at all disciplined and even "repressed."

Wow.

I had an engaging experience in this conversation up until the "people like you" insult and condescending "you don't understand" go to lines that inevitably show up when someone cannot force their opinions on others.

I told you it was your vulgar language to describe your personal sexual indulgence that offended me. As for being 'a disciplined person,' you're not getting what I'm saying. It's not who's disciplined and who isn't. It's that some people are resisting the urge to indulge to prevent consequences like pregnancy while others are just not bothering because they've decided the pleasure outweighs the risks and sacrifices, including that of the fetus.

You are making this big deal of the fact that people 'want' sex, but since when does it matter what you want when you are doing harm? What this argument comes down to is whether any or significant harm is done with abortion. By the same logic, all these men who get called out for groping women nowadays could argue that the pleasure they get from groping outweighs the small amount of discomfort their victims experience. Now it just so happens that women have voices and language to emphasizes how much discomfort it causes them to be groped/harassed/etc. but fetuses don't so whoever wants to justify killing them can rationalize it the same way people who kill and eat dumb animals make up the same beliefs about animals not feeling pain, fear, anxiety, etc.

You said it was my third paragraph that started it. I'm not all that worried about offending "virgin eyes" who have not seen the work "****" used appropriately. However, it's usage was meant not to be vulgar but to differentiate between "love making" and "having sex." If any of these terms help you digest it's meaning, here you go:

1. A bit of crumpet
2. A bit of “How’s yer father?”
3. A bit of the old in-out, in-out
4. Accommodation
5. Act of darkness
6. Adult naptime
7. Afternoon delight
8. Aggressive cuddling
9. Agreeing on stuff
10. Amorous congress
11. Assault with a friendly weapon
12. Attacking the pink fortress
13. Baking the potato
14. Balling
15. Bam-bam in the ham
16. Banana in a fruit salad
17. Bandicooting
18. Banging
19. Barneymugging
20. Basket-making
21. Batter-dipping the corn dog
22. Beard-splitting
23. Beating guts
24. Bedroom rodeo
25. Being intimate
26. Belly-bumping
27. Bending her over a barrel and showing her the fifty states
28. Bisecting the triangle
29. Blitzkrieg mit dem fleischgewehr
30. Blowing the grounsils
31. Bludgeoning the flaps
32. Bodging
33. Boffing
34. Boinking
35. Bonestorming
36. Boning
37. Boom-boom
38. Boppin’ squiddles
39. Bouncy-bouncy
40. Bow-chick-a-wow-wow
41. Bringing an al dente noodle to the spaghetti house
42. Bruising the beef curtains
43. Buckwilding
44. Bulging the back of the old onion bag
45. Bumping uglies
46. Buttering the biscuit
47. Burping the worm in the mole hole
48. Burying the weasel
49. Bushwacking
50. Buying Frisbees
51. Buzzing the Brillo
52. Carnal knowledge
53. Cattle-prodding the oyster ditch with the lap rocket
54. Caulking the tub
55. Cave-diving
56. Charvering
57. Checking the oil
58. Chesterfield rugby
59. Christening the yak
60. Churning butter
61. Cleaning the cobwebs with the womb broom
62. Clicketing
63. Clunge plunge
64. Commixtion
65. Completing the jigsaw puzzle
66. Corking the onion
67. Crashing the custard truck
68. Creaming the Twinkie
69. Crunching guts
70. Crushing buns
71. Cully-shangying
72. Dancing in the sheets
73. Dancing the goat’s jig
74. Daubing the brush
75. Dickening
76. Digging up the sand crab
77. Dinky-tickling
78. Dipping the crane in the oil well
79. Dipping the stinger in the honey
80. Dipping the wick
81. Disappointing the wife
82. Docking
83. Doddling
84. Doing it
85. Doing squat thrusts in the cucumber patch
86. Doing the Devil’s dance
87. Doing the dirty deed
88. Doing the dipsy doodle
89. Doing the do
90. Doing the hibbety-dibbety
91. Doing the horizontal greased-weasel tango
92. Doing the mystery dance
93. Doing the nasty
94. Doing the wild thing
95. Doinking
96. Doodle-bopping
97. Doodling
98. Drabbling
99. Driving Miss Daisy
100. Dunking the dingus
101. Enraging the cave
102. Entangling the lower beards
103. Entering the castle
104. Exploring Punarnia
105. Extreme flirting
106. Feeding the kitty
107. Fenorking
108. Ferking
109. Fettling
110. Fickey-fick
111. Fidgeting the midget in Bridget
112. Filling her out like an application
113. Filling the cream donut
114. Filling the gas tank
115. Fishing for kippers
116. Fixing the clap flap
117. Fletching
118. Flimp-flopping
119. Forbidden polka
120. Four-legged foxtrot
121. Frickle-frackle
122. Frigging
123. *******
124. Funny business
125. Furgling
126. Getting a bellyful of marrow
127. Getting busy
128. Getting down
129. Getting it on
130. Getting laid
131. Getting some
132. Getting up in them guts
133. Getting one’s banana peeled
134. Getting one’s bean waxed
135. Getting one’s bone honed
136. Getting one’s canoe shellacked
137. Getting one’s kettle mended
138. Getting one’s Twinkie stinky
139. Getting some stank on the hang down
140. Giving her the beans
141. Giving the dog a bone
142. Going all the way
143. Going balls-deep
144. Going crab fishing in the Dead Sea
145. Going heels-to-Jesus
146. Going in the nappy dugout
147. Going to the grocery store
148. Gland-to-gland combat
149. Glazing the donut
150. Greasing the loaf pan
151. Grummeting
152. Gutsticking
153. Hanging 20 toes
154. Hanging at the Y
155. Hanky panky
156. Harpooning the salty longshoreman
157. Having relations
158. Having hot pudding for supper
159. Hiding the bishop
160. Hiding the Nazi
161. Hitting a home run
162. Hitting the skins
163. Hitting the upvote button
164. Hot beef injection
165. Humpy-squirty
166. Horizontal refreshments
167. Hot yoga
168. Humping
169. Huntching
170. Interior decorating
171. Introducing Charley
172. Intromission
173. Jamming the clam
174. Jerking it where she’s twerking it
175. Jerking off with someone to talk to
176. Jiffy-stiffing
177. Jiggery-pokery
178. Jingle-jangling
179. Jinking
180. Jiving
181. Joint session of Congress
182. Jumping bones
183. Jumping the turnstile
184. Knobbing
185. Knocking boots
186. Knowing someone in the biblical sense
187. Launching the meat missile
188. Laying pipe
189. Loading the clown into the cannon
190. Locking legs and swapping gravy
191. Lust-and-thrust
192. Makin’ bacon
193. Making a magical sandwich
194. Making it
195. Making love
196. Making one’s way downtown
197. Making the beast with two backs
198. Making whoopee
199. Marital congress
200. Mashing the fat
201. Mattress-dancing
202. Matrimonial polka
203. Midnight jockey ride
204. Mingling limbs
205. Mishing
206. Moistening the Pope
207. Mollocking
208. Monkey business
209. Monster mashing
210. Mort douce
211. Mortar and pestle
212. Moving furniture
213. Myrtling
214. Naffing
215. Nailing
216. Negotiating the forested chasm
217. Nobbling
218. Noddy
219. Nubbing
220. Nugging
221. Nurtling
222. Nut in the gut
223. Nygling
224. Occupying
225. Opening the gates of Mordor
226. Organ grinding
227. Oscillating the unmentionables
228. Paddling up Coochie Creek
229. Palliardizing
230. Pants-off dance-off
231. Parallel parking
232. Parking the beef bus in Tuna Town
233. Parting the pink sea
234. Passing the gravy
235. Patching the hatchet wound
236. Peeling the tree bark
237. Pelvic pinochle
238. Phutzing
239. Pickling the prime meridian
240. Pile-driving
241. Pizzling
242. Planting the parsnip
243. Playing a game of Mr. Wobbly hides his helmet
244. Playing dungeons and dragons
245. Playing hide the cannoli
246. Playing peek-a-boo with your vein cane in the flesh pipe
247. Playing Tetris
248. Playing with the box the kid came in
249. Plonking
250. Plooking
251. Plowing through the bean field
252. Plugging
253. Pogo in the shrub
254. Poking squid
255. Pole-varnishing
256. Polishing the porpoise
257. Pondering the unicorn
258. Porking
259. Posting a letter
260. Pounding the paternal piston
261. Pounding the punani pavement
262. Puddle-snuggling
263. Pranging
264. Praying with the knees upwards
265. Pressing dangly parts
266. Pressing the baby button
267. Pressure-washing the quiver bone in the bitch wrinkle
268. Prick-scouring
269. Prigging
270. Pronging
271. Pully-hawly
272. Pumping fur
273. Punch-******* the rosebud
274. Punching the cow
275. Putting condensed milk on the waffle
276. Putting ranch dressing in Hidden Valley
277. Putting the bread in the oven
278. Putting the email in the spam folder
279. Putting the wand in the chamber of secrets
280. Quelching
281. Quimsticking
282. Releasing the Kraken
283. Riding St. George
284. Riding the bolonga pony
285. Riding the Bony Express
286. Rip-‘n’-Dip
287. Roasting the broomstick
288. Rocking ‘n’ rolling
289. Rogering
290. Rolling in the hay
291. Rooting
292. Roughing up the suspect
293. Rubbing the fun bits
294. Rubbing wet spots
295. Rumbusticating
296. Rummaging in the root cellar
297. Rumpling
298. Rumpy-pumpy
299. Rutting
300. Schnoodlypooping
301. Scoring
302. Scragging
303. Screwing
304. Scrogging
305. Scromping
306. Scrumping
307. Searching for pocket change
308. Seeing a man about a dog
309. Sending out for sushi
310. Sexual congress
311. Sexy time
312. Shaboinking
313. Shafting
314. Shagging
315. Shaking sheets
316. Shampooing the wookie
317. Sharpening the pencil
318. Sheathing the meat dagger
319. Shocking the monkey
320. Shooting the meat rocket into the sausage wallet
321. Shrimpin’ the Barbie
322. Shtupping
323. Shucking the oyster
324. Sinking the pink
325. Skeet-shooting
326. Skinning the cat
327. Sklooging
328. Slamming the clam
329. Slap and tickle
330. Slapping sloppies
331. Slaying the vadragon
332. Sliming the banana
333. Slippin’ and slidin’
334. Slophockey
335. Smacking the salmon
336. Smashing buttflaps
337. Smashing pissers
338. Smegging
339. Snabbling
340. Snibbing
341. Snu-snu
342. Souring the kraut
343. Spearing the bearded clam
344. Spelunking the slime cave
345. Splitting the hamster
346. Splooge bathing
347. Splurgin’ the nurge
348. Spray-painting the cervix
349. Squat-jumping in the cucumber patch
350. Squishin’ the gibbly bits
351. Sticking it in the slop box
352. Sticking the llama’s head up the lift shaft
353. Stirring guts
354. Stirring the up-skirt yogurt
355. Struggle snuggling
356. Stuffin’ the muffin
357. Stuffing the taco
358. Swanky swirling
359. Sweeping the chimney
360. Switcheling
361. Taking Grandma to Applebee’s
362. Taking ol’ One-Eye to the optometrist
363. Taking the bald-headed gnome for a stroll in the misty forest
364. Taking the magic bus to Manchester
365. Taming the strange
366. Tapping ass
367. Testing the humidity
368. Testing the suspension
369. Thumping thighs
370. Thrashing the gash
371. Threading the needle
372. Thrumming
373. Tickling her tummy from the inside
374. Tiffing
375. Tonking
376. Torpedoing the eel
377. Tripping down the mine shaft
378. Tromboning
379. Tube-snake boogie
380. Tubular wedging
381. Tumbling
382. Tunnel patrol
383. Twirling the Dum Dum
384. Two-ball in the middle pocket
385. Two-person push-ups
386. Tying the true lover’s knot
387. Using a telescope to explore the black hole
388. Venerean mirth
389. Venery
390. Violating the prime directive
391. Vulcanizing the whoopee stick
392. Waka-waka
393. Waxing ass
394. Wetting the willy
395. Whitewashing the picket fence
396. Whittling the love branch
397. Wiggling the toothpick
398. Yentzing
399. Yiffing
400. Zig-Zagging

I think your logic is flawed when you defend how women are accosted by men through no fault of their own and eating meat to justify an argument. It's not the same caliber of conversation nor is it appropriate.

I got to bow-chick-a-wow-wow and laughed out loud, I think I frightened the dog. She yiked out loud and ran upstairs. It’s too bad that some folks don’t understand the need for intimacy between husbands and wives or committed adults. It strengthens the bond, it solidifies the family and creates a trust that’s so necessary for a successful life together. But apparently some folks have a withered existence, and live a joyless life. I hope their idea of purity sustains them, I mean really sustains them, not just the thought they are holier than thou sort of satisfaction.

When you post in-your-face language after being told you offended someone, I wonder how you have the gaul to complain about whatever language I used that you found hostile and/or disrespectful. If you want people to treat you with respect, don't you also have to respect their sensitivities?