23
   

Abortion is immoral. Period.

 
 
Region Philbis
 
  4  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 07:52 am
@maxdancona,

in a perfect world, no one would ever need an abortion...
maxdancona
 
  0  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 07:53 am
@Region Philbis,
Region Philbis wrote:


in a perfect world, no one would ever need an abortion...


Exactly! And that is the "rare" in "safe, legal and rare".
Region Philbis
 
  4  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 07:55 am
@maxdancona,

in reality, people will continue to get pregnant -- for a variety of reasons -- and continue
to decide they do not want to give birth -- for a variety of reasons...
engineer
 
  6  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 07:59 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

When I say that I want abortion to be rare, I mean in the sense that as many people getting pregnant do so because they want to and unwanted pregnancies are reduced through policy and education.

I'm there as well. I don't think that an abortion is ever an easy thing for the people involved and I'd much rather the need be reduced either because unwanted pregnancies are dramatically reduced or because the support systems are such that having an unexpected child is not the crushing burden that it can be.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 08:17 am
@Region Philbis,
I don't get your point Region.

There are many things we can do that will greatly reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies (including good sex education and access to birth control). These have been shown conclusively to significantly reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

Whether or not we agree on abortion... I don't see why we can't agree on good sex education and access to birth control.

Region Philbis
 
  3  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 08:24 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
why we can't agree on good sex education and access to birth control
we do agree -- i'm all for both of these things.

however, i do not think these things are going to significantly reduce the number of
unwanted pregnancies -- certainly not to the point when they become rare...
maxdancona
 
  0  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 08:31 am
@Region Philbis,
The research is pretty conclusive (this is the first thing that came up in a quick google search), I will dig up better if you need.

Quote:
Study lead author Pamela Kohler, a program manager at the University of Washington in Seattle, and colleagues found that about 25 percent of teens received abstinence-only education and about two-thirds received comprehensive sex education. About 9 percent -- particularly teens from poor families and those in rural areas -- received no sex education at all.

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The researchers found that teens who received comprehensive sex education were 60 percent less likely to get pregnant or to get someone pregnant than those who received no sex education.

Other results -- not statistically significant, however -- suggested that comprehensive sex education, but not abstinence-based sex education, slightly reduced the likelihood of teens having vaginal intercourse. Neither approach seemed to reduce the likelihood of reported cases of sexually transmitted diseases.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/24/AR2008032401515.html

I personally believe that abortion is morally problematic (although I don't believe it should be made illegal). I do speak about birth control (including my personal opposition to abortion) with sexual partners. I am at an age and social status where reliable birth control isn't an issue.

My strong support for comprehensive sex education and access to birth control is consistent with this. That is the "rare" in "safe, legal and rare".

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 09:04 am
@Region Philbis,
Region Philbis wrote:
however, i do not think these things are going to significantly reduce the number of
unwanted pregnancies -- certainly not to the point when they become rare...


not sure how to define rare but education and availability of good birth control can make an enormous difference

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/reducing-abortion-rates-policy_us_589b8ea5e4b09bd304bfd920

lots of links in that piece

ehBeth
 
  2  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 09:19 am
@Region Philbis,
This was a pretty good review of research cross cultures.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010782417301889

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0010782417301889-gr1.jpg

while some people are clearly using abortion as a form of birth control, which is truly horrifying, other reasons for ending pregnancies are in the lead

Quote:
3. Results
3.1. Main reasons for abortion
In six of the 13 countries for which we had data on the main reason, the most commonly reported reason for having an abortion was socioeconomic concerns, cited by a plurality of women (ranging from 27% to 40%) (Table 3). In five countries, limiting childbearing was the most frequently reported reason, ranging from 20% in Nepal to 64% in Azerbaijan. In Belgium, the most frequently cited reasons were partner-related (23%) and socioeconomic concerns (23%), and in Kyrgyz Republic, risk to maternal health was commonly reported (44%).


limiting childbearing. get these folks some education and birth control
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 09:27 am
@ehBeth,
EhBeth has agreed with me several times recently. I don't quite know what to make of it Wink.
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  4  
Thu 12 Jul, 2018 10:15 pm
Quote:
Abortion is immoral. Period.


But what is morality? Question mark?
Do we have to name the punctuation mark? Isn't a period on its own understood?
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  4  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 05:08 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Whether or not we agree on abortion... I don't see why we can't agree on good sex education and access to birth control.


That's exactly the point.

The conservatives have systematically dismantled the way reproductive care is accessed. With Trump gutting ACA, it allows several loopholes to allow insurance companies to not pay for a birth control prescription. Employers do not have to not offer birth control as part of their benefit package. Pharmacists are allowed to refuse filling a prescription for birth control. Even funding for sex education in schools has been slashed.

So, if anti-abortionists really have a moral obligation to stop abortions from happening, why do they do every thing in their power to make sure an unwanted pregnancy happens in the first place?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/13/15966432/senate-revised-health-bill-birth-control

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/10/17/558141304/if-you-want-an-iud-take-note-of-trumps-new-birth-control-policy

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/pharmacist-conscience-clauses-laws-and-information.aspx

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/contributors/2017/09/07/comprehensive-sex-education-budget-cuts/633905001/



maxdancona
 
  -1  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 07:20 am
@neptuneblue,
You are demonizing people you call "anti-abortionists" by suggesting that they are all the same. I suppose the opposite of "anti-abortionist" (your word) is "pro-abortionist" (which sounds even more offensive)... but the point is that it isn't legitimate to lump a diverse group of people into one label. There are Christians who believe in a woman's right to choose. There are Trump supporting gun owners who believe in a woman's right to choose (i.e. Tony Lahren).

There are humanists, liberals and social activists who believe that abortion is immoral and should be illegal. Some pro-life activists are religious; some from liberal religions. Some are atheists. Some are native American.

You seem to ignore everyone who doesn't fit into your narrow stereotype.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/e8f109_5c629612232e4e88ac340eea6504a340~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_150,h_201,al_c,lg_1,q_80/e8f109_5c629612232e4e88ac340eea6504a340~mv2.webp

Quote:
Let’s be honest: how much does it cost to issue a statement that separating a child from his asylum-seeking parents is wrong? How much effort or funds does it take to call an elected official to ask them to make a difference for children in any of these other areas? I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the pro-life movement should take on every cause with the same fervour as abortion, but surely we ought not to be called out for staying silent in the face of child suffering!

I want to be part of a pro-life movement that is known for its compassion. Not one that has a reputation for merely trying to restrict or eliminate abortion while leaving nothing sustainably better in its wake. Imagine how the dialog would change if people looked at us and said “I disagree about life having value from fertilization but those pro-life people are bending themselves every direction to make society a better place!” Instead, they see a movement that’s determined to take abortion away while leaving little more than mediocre charities in its place.


https://www.goread.com/buzz/kruszer/article/pro-life-means-born-lives-too/#
neptuneblue
 
  4  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 08:37 am
@maxdancona,
You're missing the point, again. It isn't about demonizing anybody. It's the systematic shut down of fair access to health care. No access to birth control leads to an increased unwanted pregnancy rate. Where's the moral outrage about that?


ehBeth
 
  3  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 08:41 am
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
So, if anti-abortionists really have a moral obligation to stop abortions from happening, why do they do every thing in their power to make sure an unwanted pregnancy happens in the first place?


an excellent question

I've always wondered why people were against good sex ed/birth control
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 09:25 am
@neptuneblue,
Quote:
You're missing the point, again. It isn't about demonizing anybody. It's the systematic shut down of fair access to health care. No access to birth control leads to an increased unwanted pregnancy rate. Where's the moral outrage about that?


There are lots of people who believe that abortion is immoral and should be illegal, who also support fair access to health care and promote the use of birth control. There is no need for moral outrage when you agree.

I am just asking you to accept that people on the pro-life side support health care, birth-control, social justice. There are pro-life feminists.

maxdancona
 
  -3  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 09:28 am
@ehBeth,
You are completely ignoring the voices of women and men who don't fit into your stereotype. This is the very definition of a straw man argument.

Rather than listening to what people actually have to say, you turn them into a label. You don't accept that people on the other side of this political issue are human beings with a diverse set of opinions, backgrounds, beliefs and experiences.

maxdancona
 
  -1  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 10:16 am
@maxdancona,


Quote:
When I talk to people about my story. Not my label, not my political affiliation, but my story. They say 'Oh my gosh, I totally get that' because that's a human experience. So the more human experiences we can have, and the less labeling others, I think the better off we all are.

0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 01:13 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

There are lots of people who believe that abortion is immoral and should be illegal, who also support fair access to health care and promote the use of birth control.

There are also lot of people who believe that abortion is immoral and should be illegal, who also believe that sex outside of marriage is immoral and birth control is also immoral in or out of marriage is immoral and divorce is immoral under any circumstances. Whose morals define the law?
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Fri 13 Jul, 2018 01:15 pm
@engineer,
Do we really have to go over civics 101, Engineer?



Of course, there is Roe v. Wade, as long as that stands abortion will be the law of the land. But there are no guarantees. The point is that if Roe v. Wade is overturned (as I suspect it will), then this issue will be like every other issue. We will decide it through our democratic process (probably state by state).


0 Replies
 
 

 
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