Why Don't We Care About African Genocide?

I've decided no such thing. You strike as an exceptional liberal Euro. You should know that most of the people I care about most are liberal and while I frequently find European leadership aggravating as hell, I don't hold it against Europeans anymore than the multitudes who resent American leadership hold it against individual Americans... or in most cases (I imagine) even America. I judged only your persistent ABB diversions from the topic harshly. It seemed to be dominating your mindset at the time. Most of your response is misunderstanding, I suspect, in that when I put "Old Europe" in "parentheses" I was referring to the collective countries leadership, not you. Do you have preferred nickname so we can avoid this confusion in the future? Or should I wait for the ladies to assign you one?

You still seem to want to divert to Iraq, and I won't because there's thousands of other threads for that purpose (literally, I'd bet), but you might find amusing I've suggested the reason quoted below played some roll in the actual decision process of Iraq myself;

Yes it is... but no big surprise. I didn't think we'd disagree much on this issue... though I suspect we'll probably disagree on most others. No worries... you seem more than reasonable to me. A nick name really would be handy though.

hmmmmm.... thanks for clarifying!

Well, OB - just call me OE then!! :wink:

P.S. re



I'm tempted to believe that I'll enjoy discussions with you very much! You seem to be more than reasonable to me, too! Though, being the newbie here, I might not be in the position to utter those words....

Nevertheless - looking forward to disagree with you!

- OE

I'd call this a hell of a lot of doubt:

http://www.iraqwar.org/germanreport.htm

Well, gunga quoting from communist newspapers.

('Junge Welt' is one of the heirs from GDR times, the newspaper of the youth in GDR, with the highest circulation in the GDR, and now published by a left publishing co-operative.)

Wait, gunga.... YOU are referring to a website titled "Americans Against Bombing, Americans Against World Empire" :wink:

But, seriously... I'll admit I always found it hard to keep track with what was going on there. As you might know, there are 27 ethnicities living in the area of Wojwodina alone.... not mentioning Serbia, Montenegro and the Kosovo...

And, as per you source



I'm not going to defend Nato bombing. But how would YOU define "extensive persecution"? 10 Albanians 'persecuted' by Serbs? 5? 100?

In case you speak either French or German, there's a good source here (click on 'cartes')....

Darn!! You're right!

<marking day when gunga quoted from a communist newspaper in calendar>

The documents in question originated with the Bavarian state government. There are multiple sources on the web, not all of which are communist, e.g.

http://emperor.vwh.net/articles/german/Germany.html

Geography, history and logistics check:

1. A naval blockade of Sudan is unlikely due to its location:



2. Genocides around the rim of the Sahara desert have been going on for the last 13 centuries as overpopulation pressure from lighter-skinned tribes from the North have relentlessly pushed the darker-skinned southerners - anybody here wondered what the Tutsi vs Hutu genocide was about?

3. Finally: intervention requires priorities, and a plan. Where are the troops to come from? How long should they stay? Will the process start again when they leave? Is any money sent over there going to help the locals or go straight into lining government officials' pockets? Why Sudan, not East Timor or Aceh or Tibet or [insert your favorite genocide location here]?

Unless you have some elementary concept of geography, history, politics, and answers to these questions, what is the point of this thread?

They're not going to ship oil to China by way of a pipeline.

An analogy is based on a similarity. There is no similarity. To begin with we are not the world's policeman as stated over and over by conservative politicians as well as liberals. Citizens being frisked for weapons would actualy be similar to the inspectors looking for weapons in Iraq. However, a policeman would immediately find there was a weapon on a person or no weapon on a person. An analogy does require a similarity of scope and there is little similarity in that respect. The analogy falls apart with any rational inspection (sic).

I never metaphor I didn't like. Until now.

All those quotes are published either on extreme left or right websites.


And, no, none originates by the Bavarian state government.

All those quotes are published either on extreme left or right websites.

And, no, none originates by the Bavarian state government.

Well, I do not think the UN is ignoring the situation:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/infocusRel.asp?infocusID=88&Body=Sudan&Body1

Whether their action is effective is in doubt:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/09/18/darfur9355.htm

Here is some interesting background speculation:

http://www.afrol.com/articles/13921


I think for those of you complaining that some on the left want the US to assist in intervening (though I am unsure how the African Union is going in its intervention????) - the key difference would be, I think, that US assistance might be requested in a UN authorised intervention. Is anyone demanding that the US isend troops in off its own bat?

A number of countries have, as I understand it, offered troops for such an intervention - including Canada - and maybe Oz - not sure (though our recent assent to increasing our troop complement in Iraq may put paid to this - since our small army is somewhat stretched by being in Iraq, Afghanistan, East Timor, the Solomons - and perhaps, soon to assist a police/political intervention in Papua Nuigini)

This tragedy does, however, highlight, as did Rwanda, how primitive is our progress in the management of the great difficulties inherent in the development of any kind of effective International law and policing - noting in passing that damage was done to the development of international law by the recent invasion of Iraq by the US, GB and Australia, sans UN sanction.

Hmm - seems the debate has passed me by!!!

BINGO!!

I think the debate is if this administration is going to go into a sovereign country to "right a wrong," why are they reticent to go into other countries to "right a wrong?" Are they flaunting the law of attrition? Any good salesperson knows that doesn't work. THis adminstration is doing a lousy sales job on all their policies. They've already assumed a sale many times, now the approach is more like holding down the victim by jamming a foot on their throat and making the sale by force. Next time anyone here walks into Sears to buy a refrigerator, I hope the don't use that sales approach on you.

I don't have time this morning to try to edit this whole thing by hand, this is what I get scanning the letter Alan Keyes sent me a week or so ago. Again he's soliciting aid for the Persecution Project Foundation to help the victims, mainly Christians, of the insane persecution going on in Sudan.

http://www.persecutionproject.org/

Again I'd feel a little better about that if the poroject were a member of ECFA but they do seem to be highly rated by a similar organization called ministrywatch and I view Alan Keyes and Chuck Colsen as 100% straight up and for the time being that suffices, at least for me.

The letter, as scanned:


Alan Keyes
The United Nations is complicit in genocide! And the nightly news ignores it -- that's
why it's so important that you read this letter. . .
Dear Friend of Freedom,
I'm writing to you today on behalf of Odatti, Elizabeth and Joseph.
Otherwise, you would never hear their voices. AND THEIR VOICES NEED TO BE
HEARD! .
While the world is told only that Sudan's government officials continue to
negotiate a peace agreement with Christian freedom fighters in the south,
Khartoum flagrantly violates one cease fire agreement after another.
SHILLUK CHRISTIANS MASSACRED!
Recently, Sudanese troops and government-backed tribal militia invaded 22
~J1i.ll 'J]{ "ill :AgQ~. ',I'jo'gnty :thoU£...3.oo flOOpJ...G .:lilOko in confuaion an.d :tGr~or to koo
crackle of automatic weapons fire. . More than a thousand men, women and
children were ~rutally murdered. Homes were burned. Cattle and goods stolen.
Girls and women raped. Children abducted as slaves.
--==
"The soldiers came in the middle of the night," Odatti testified.
"Everybody ran. Some into the bush, others into the river. They killed blind
old ladies who could not run away."
"My husband was killed right away," Elizabeth said. "I ran with the kids.
Two drowned in the river, and the other two I don't even know where they are.
You tried to grab one child here and there, but you could only do so much."
"We started running," added another woman. "They kidnapped my older
daughter and my husband. I came here alone. One of the raiders talked nicely
to my sister and tried to have intercourse with her. When she refused, he
raEed her and took her with them."-
These are only three of 700 survivors who fled into the Nile and the
snake-infested bush. After seven days without food, they arrived at the
village of Payuer. There, they joined 85,000 other internally displaced
Christians -- refugees of Africa's longest-running civil war. . Despite their
='gnawlng nunger,' they haG nothIng-to"eat "but leaves from the. acaciairees .
For more than two decades, Sudan's Islamic regime has ruthlessly carried
out its genocidal policies in the south - 2 million Christians are dead; twice
as many are homeless or starving and persecuted in government garrison refugee
camps.
And while the echoes of "Never again!" fade into Sudan's blood-soaked
soil, THE WORLD NOT ONLY CONTINUES TO TURN A BLIND EYE BUT EVEN HELPS THE
TERRORISTS:
. The United~ations channels aid ONLY where directed by the Muslim
extremists in Khartoum. Food is a weapon! Christians must choose between
subjection and starvation. Christian boys are fed only if they attend
Islamic schools.
. Chinese and Western oil firms pay government-backed militias to drive
(please turn page over. . )

2
.
Christians away from their homes in the region being drilled and explored.
Major news media refuse to report the atrocities. For example, 234
civilians were cut down during ceasefire violations near the town of
Akobo. Nearly half of those butchered were children 12 years old or
younger! Yet the liberal newspapers and broadcast networks ignored the
story, as they do most reports of the increasing, systematic persecution
of Christians.
And this is only part of the horror of Sudan.
Earlier this year, the terrorists of Khartoum launched a massive scorched
earth campaign against Black Africans in Darfur, a vast region the size of
France in western Sudan.
Again the government sent its bombers and helicopter gunships, as well as
arming and deploying an estimated 20,000 janjaweed (an Arabic idiom roughly
translated as "evil horsemen") Arab militia.
And again, the world shut-its eyes and ears andt~r~~d its back:
. On April 21, instead of recommending sanctions as provided by The Sudan
Peace Act, the U. S. State Department assured the administration that "the
government of Sudan and the Sudan People's Liberation Movement are
negotiating in good faith."
. The United Nations sent investigators into Darfur. They recorded the most
heinous atrocities and human rights violations imaginable, then buried the
report.
At least 50,000 people have been killed; 1.2 million are homeless. In one
refugee camp alone, as many as 15 children die every day of starvation and
disease. And because of the rains and constant obstruction of humanitarian aid
by the Sudanese government tens of thousands more refugees are expected to die
before Christmas.
I need YOUR help to make sure that Sudanese dictator Omar al-Bashir and
his terrorist regime are not rewarded with a multi-billion-dollar peace
dividend. Secretary of State Colin Powell recently admitted that Khartoum's
deadly campaign in Darfur is nothing less than genocide. Therefore, the United
,5J:a;tesbas no,...m~aL,.r,ighLtG~contribute "one ,cent ~to-any postwar reconstruction
(money which would be controlled almost entirely by the NIF) until there is a
true and verifiable peace for all people throughout Sudan.
You see, it's because of complicity by the U.N. and the indifference of
the international community, that the Sudanese government has felt free to
commit genocide! .
MY FRIEND, THE HORROR OF SUDAN EXPOSES THE ABANDONMENT OF ALL MORAL
PRINCIPLE BY THE U.N. AND OUR MEDIA ELITES.
But it's not enough to be outraged, my friend. We must take action.
That's why Brad Phil*ips, son of my old friend Howard Phillips, established the
Persecution Project Foundation.
And later in this letter, I'll tell you how you can get a video that
vividly portrays what life is like now for Christians in Sudan, and what you
(next page, please. . . )

3
can do right now to help. But first let me introduce you to Joseph.
In 1987, 7-year-old Joseph watched as mounted Arab slave raiders thundered
into his village and began to slaughter his family and everyone else they could
catch. . . everyone but the women and children, who they would sell in the
legal slave markets in the north.
For 10 years, Joseph languished under the cruel whip of his master --
eating from the garbage, beaten, tortured and abused. Joseph was charged with
fetching water and tending his master's camels.
One Sunday morning, he heard singing. The singing of hymns and worship
were food for his lonely soul. He followed the melodies to their source, and
sat in a church service like those he remembered as a boy.
When he returned, several camels had escaped. Joseph searched frantically,
but before he could find them, his master flew into a rage and swore he would
do t9_JoseQh what had b~eD- done to Jesus. . . he would CRUCIFY ~IM!
After a brutal beating, Joseph was laid out on a wooden plank. Nine-inch
nails were driven through his hands, knees and feet. Then acid was poured on
the boy's legs. Finally, Joseph was left for dead.
The master's young son heard Joseph crying for help and had pity on him.
He secretly brought Joseph food and water, as the crucified child slipped in
and out of consciousness and delirium. After 7 days, the slave owner's son was
allowed to pullout the nails and carry Joseph to a medical clinic.
After his return, his master saw little value in a useless cripple. So he
sold Joseph to Christian slave redeemers who arranged his return home to his
village in Bahr el Gazal.
My friend, I cannot rest until I know you and I have done what we can to
strengthen these brave folks, sustain them in their trial, and empower them to
stand firm in their faith. Only a few organizations have the guts to help in
areas where the U.N. refuses to send food and where death by militia raiders is
always possible. But the Persecution Project Foundation is there. So here's
what I need you to do:
1) Seas a ~~E~. rcroccution-Projcot Foundation ocrvco and intcrccdc3 for
those who suffer so greatly in Sudan and elsewhere in Africa. Your gifts
are tax-deductible. If you can give $50 or more, Brad Phillips will send
you the superb video FORCED TO FLEE. Its vivid images will tell you the
complete story of what's happening to our brothers and sisters right now
in Sudan. AND -- if you can send a gift of ANY size, however small,
you'll get the regular newsletter of The Persecution Project -- 8 pages of
photos and articles that will help focus your prayers and give you an
effective tool for sharing the truth about Sudan persecution with others.
2) In any case, let me know you're standing with me on this. I'm determined
that our government will stop abetting the genocidal Islamic terrorists in
Khartoum. We cannot, we must not reward their ongoing crimes with a
mul ti-billi.on-dollar peace dividend. So please sign and send the petition
to President Bush that is part of the enclosed reply form.
3) Let me know you'll join me in prayer for ALL persecuted Christians in
Sudan. "Our job," says author and radio commentator Chuck Colson, "is to
(over once more, please. . )

4
use every weapon we have got, which is to bring aid to these people.
and to see to it that the offices of our government are used to press for
religious liberty and human freedom." So let us unite and pray. Because
no one of us has the answer for this demonically-inspired human cruelty.
But together, we can make a significant difference in someone's life.
Every gift you send will help. Maybe it will feed a wife and mother like
Elizabeth, who lost her husband and four children. Maybe it will help a young
man like Joseph, enslaved and mutilated, to start life over.
Here's just some of what your gift provides: food, medical supplies,
tools, seed for new crops, school materials, Bibles in the local language, plus
training for Sudanese pastors, chaplains, and other Christian workers in this
very dangerous mission field.
The Persecution Project Foundation helps with all of these.
vary widely.
But costs
r~-s -" ---- -~ --- - --
Often, due to weather or fighting, deliveries must be made by airplane
instead of by truck. Aircraft cost more to rent, but deliver more food and
supplies with each trip.
So if you're in a position to send a larger gift, please help with:
A gift of $300 to buy about 1 ton of fqod, medicine, and supplies
A gift of $1000 to charter a 12 ton truck, or
A gift of $4500 to charter an airplane delivering one ton of food and
supplies to those areas trucks can't reach, or
A gift of $9500 to charter a LARGE airplane, delivering up to eight times
as much food, medicine, and school supplies as a small aircraft.
Thank you for whatever you can share. May God give us grace to do what is
right and stand united with our brotherB and sisters in Sudan. And may our
unity be a testimony to the world.
.
.
.
.
-~~= -~ --= -=~~-~ --~--- - - . . -. O~'
Alan Keyes, Founder and Chairman
The Declaration Foundation
P.S. There's NO WAY in just this one letter that I can convey to you the
overwhelming horror faced by our brothers and sisters in Sudan. YOU MUST SEE
IT FOR YOURSELF. So please, send your' gift of $50 or more today and get the
Persecution Project Foundation video FORCED TO FLEE. Or, if you can't send a
gift that large, please share whatever you can, so that Brad Phillips can begin
sending you his Africa Messenger newsletter. That way you'll be kept up to
date and empowered to pray. Pray with me that this evil be stopped NOW. Thank
you again, and God bless you.
Persecution Project Foundation P. O. Box 131757 Houston, TX 77219-1757

Terrible metaphor, LW, but if you insist. :wink: Looking at the two people in line in front of you, with feet on there throats, what's it gonna take to sell you? Do you think everyone in line will forever choose the foot... or do you think they might prefer living in Billion Dollar Palaces too much to trade them in for jail cells if they can help it? That kind of stuff sells itself.

The heads of the Khartoum Government need to be told, in no uncertain terms, that they will be held accountable for actions in the field… and not with some pesky sanctions either. Send over the most recent photos of Uday, Kusay and Saddam to illustrate the point.

The problems we face are mostly due to a lack of accountability. Everyone's all worried about the "sovereign rights" of mass murderers instead of the human rights of their victims. Diplomatic impunity… to murder, rape and pillage by virtue of a gun and a line in the sand. Enough.

Ever notice McDonalds is pretty much McDonalds wherever you go? They get away with mediocre local management because their chain of delegated authority goes straight to the top. Individual A-holes aren't allowed to change the rules… only the top dog and/or board of directors is (this is how human rights should be dealt with). McDonalds need not own every franchise to enforce their minimum standards… they simply hold accountable the link that fails. To hell with the security of murderers. Running a country should be a very dangerous occupation for those who wish to violate human rights. Those who don't think they can manage their countries affairs above the minimum standards, should find another line of work before the hammer falls.

We need not micro manage the peace in every country. We need simply to let the leaders know that they will live the lives of a hunted criminal like Bin Ladin or Saddam before being dragged shackled into a courtroom to answer for their sins (or worse) if the they can't comply with basic human rights standards. I for one would like to see a tomahawk missile take out Omar al Bashir just to underscore the point.

Again; we could probably do this without Europe's agreement. With it; we probably wouldn't even have to fire a shot. It is exactly the partisan BS on an international stage that allows mass murders to roam free. Enough.

Amazing. I actually agree.