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Why Don't We Care About African Genocide?

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 01:58 pm
(Not discounting that the UN should not hang its head in shame for doing virutally nothing).
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:02 pm
So the UN is lame and individual nations are neglegent to say the least.


What will you do?
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:04 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
You're equating the invasion of Iraq to a policman frisking a suspect for a gun...

I am making an analogy, if that's what you mean.

Lightwizard wrote:
...and the lapse between having WMD and not as 60 seconds? Reread that, Brandon, and try to tell me it's not ridiculous.

The lapse is not relevant to my analogy. When someone makes an analogy between two situations, it does not imply that he thinks the two situations are identical in all facets. It's an analogy. The point is that inspecting something that might be a lethal danger so that you don't get murdered down the road can be justifiable, even if the test result is negative.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:09 pm
nimh
I cannot make the distinction you seem to be able to. IMO the member nations are the UN and the UN is it's member nations. I cannot divorce the two. Regardless of the reasons, IMO the prime directive of the UN was to keep and assure the peace of the world. In that it has been a complete failure. I would add through it's member nations. I do not believe the original intent was that it be a relief organization.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:12 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Bush did not use the WMD as an excuse. That was his actual reason for invading Iraq, as he repeatedly said, and it was no more wrong than when a policeman frisks a suspect in a crime and doesn't find a gun. Not finding the gun does not make frisking the suspect wrong, nor does it mean the suspect didn't have a gun 60 seconds previously.


Worst. Analogy. Ever.

Frisking a suspect doesn't involve killing dozens of thousands of people and starting international wars...

What a dense thing to say.

Cycloptichorn

Making an analogy between two situations does not require that they be identical, only that they be parallel in the one area in which the analogy is being drawn. My point is that inspecting something that could very well be a lethal danger to you may be reasonable even if it ultimately turns out that the test result is negative. The analogy is perfectly valid.

Furthermore, in my opinion, your alleged concern for thousands of lives is absurd considering your recent friendly response to a poster who said that the Holocaust was a big scam for the Jews. You can't show absolute boredom at the past deliberate extermination of millions, and then claim deep concern for the possible accidental death in war of thousands.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:15 pm
bm
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old europe
 
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Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:19 pm
I understand the discussion about the UN, and I do have an opinion on that issue.

But let's assume this thread is NOT about the UN.

Let's assume, the UN would not react. Like people said it was the case with Iraq.

And let's repeat some facts or statements that we all agree on:

- There was genocide in Iraq.
- This was a reason to invade Iraq.
- The president said: "All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know the United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors".

What can we deduct from that? What should the US do?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:23 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
The point is that inspecting something that might be a lethal danger so that you don't get murdered down the road can be justifiable, even if the test result is negative.


What he's trying to say is:

Brandon9000 wrote:
No, I did not ever claim that the invasion of Iraq was motivated by a desire to fight terrorism. Show me a post in which I said that.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:29 pm
Quote:
Old Europe
- There was genocide in Iraq.
- This was a reason to invade Iraq.
- The president said: "All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know the United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors".

What can we deduct from that



Not that those questions have anything to do with he situation in Africa.
My answers to your questions are.
. > There was no genocide in Iraq
> There was no reason to invade Iraq
> Bush is full of hot air.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:29 pm
I'll rephrase.

Rather than a general discussion about what the US or UN should do, since a discussion here really does nothing to assist those being murdered, raped and burned alive, what will you do? What will you do to make sure action is taken to help these people?

Opening ones checkbook is easy for tsunami victims. Is penning a letter to your Congressman for the people of Darfur so difficult? Is making a call to his or her office too much? Is printing flyers or writing a letter to the editor to make more people aware of these atrocities asking more of you than you can bear?
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:31 pm
Brandon is fairly articulate. How did you decide what he is trying to say, from what he did say?
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old europe
 
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Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:34 pm
au1929 wrote:
Not that those questions have anything to do with he situation in Africa.
My answers to your questions are.
. > There was no genocide in Iraq


Hmmm.... I was thinking about the Kurds, ages ago, y'know....?

au1929 wrote:

> There was no reason to invade Iraq


I agree. But one of the reasons cited was, as far as I remember, the oppresiveness of the Saddam regime and the genocide on the Kurds, by means of using WMD. Back then.

au1929 wrote:

> Bush is full of hot air.


I agree! As I said: let's assume... What would be the consequence?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:42 pm
Squinney
I believe congress has already labeled it as being genocide. What do you expect writing letters to our legislators will serve? If it is to have the US send troops to the region and go it alone I would be 100% opposed. We are spread too thin and our troops have shed more than enough blood and treasury in Iraq.
It is time for the rest of the member nations to the UN to get off their collective duffs and get involved.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 02:56 pm
au1929 wrote:
Squinney
I believe congress has already labeled it as being genocide. What do you expect writing letters to our legislators will serve? If it is to have the US send troops to the region and go it alone I would be 100% opposed. We are spread too thin and our troops have shed more than enough blood and treasury in Iraq.
It is time for the rest of the member nations to the UN to get off their collective duffs and get involved.


What I'm taking issue with is that this was never a question in Iraq. The statement was, pretty much:
The UN is an incompetent bunch of loosers. We'll do it alone.

Justification (amongst others): Liberate the people (wasn't it called "Operation Iraqi Freedom"? Don't remember...)

Now we have a similar situation. And again, the UN appear to be a bunch of loosers.

I want to repeat this:

Quote:
All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know the United States will not ignore your oppression or excuse your oppressors.


And you say that congress has already labeled it as being genocide. I'm really just curious: why would you call for the United Nations?

On the other hand.... I just reread the inauguration speech. Bush used the word "freedom" or "free" 34 times. "liberty" 15 times.

Now.... you don't want to call him a lyer, do you? Twisted Evil
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 03:02 pm
Christ, we're too busy trying to secure the oil reserves in Iraq to worry about preventing genocide in a country that means nothing to us.

We're too busy slaughtering thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens (with the help of terrorists who are now entrenched in Iraq) to worry about the slaughter of innocent citizens in Darfur.

Bush and his criminal gang have done a splendid job of demonizing the U.N. Although, isn't it interesting we haven't heard much regarding the oil-for-food fiasco that neocons insist on bringing up, despite the $9 billion of unaccounted U.S. dollars meant for reconstruction in Iraq?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 03:16 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
Christ, we're too busy trying to secure the oil reserves in Iraq to worry about preventing genocide in a country that means nothing to us.

We're too busy slaughtering thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens (with the help of terrorists who are now entrenched in Iraq) to worry about the slaughter of innocent citizens in Darfur.

Bush and his criminal gang have done a splendid job of demonizing the U.N. Although, isn't it interesting we haven't heard much regarding the oil-for-food fiasco that neocons insist on bringing up, despite the $9 billion of unaccounted U.S. dollars meant for reconstruction in Iraq?


Dookie,

I wouldn't disagree with your POV. But then, on January 21st, Bush said that

Quote:
For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny -- prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder, violence will gather and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders, and raise a mortal threat. There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom.

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world.


Now, the rest of the world might have every right to hold the President accountable, don't you think?

Actually, I'm not really asking you... It's more a question for all those conservatives out there: What are the President's responsibilities, having said what he said one month ago?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 03:28 pm
President's Statement on Sudan Comprehensive Peace Agreement

January 9, 2005

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

I congratulate the Government of Sudan and the Sudan People's Liberation Movement on the signing of a comprehensive peace agreement. I thank all the officials of the United States Government who have worked hard to help achieve this agreement, including Secretary of State Colin Powell, former Special Envoy for Sudan, Ambassador John Danforth, and the Special Humanitarian Coordinator for Sudan, USAID Administrator Andrew Natsios. I also thank the Inter-Governmental Authority on Development, which sponsored the talks, and the government of Kenya, which hosted them, and the governments of Norway and the United Kingdom, and the African Union, which played constructive roles for peace.

Both sides should be proud of this accomplishment. The difficult work of implementation must now begin. Only the implementation of this agreement in good faith can result in long-term peace and development.

As we celebrate this positive movement toward peace in the longstanding North-South conflict, we remember the conflict in Darfur and the suffering it causes. This comprehensive peace agreement should serve as an inspiration and model for both sides in their work toward negotiating a peaceful resolution of the Darfur conflict. I call on the Government of Sudan and on all Darfur rebel groups to live up to their ceasefire commitments, to end atrocities, and to allow the free movement of humanitarian workers and supplies. The United States will continue to assist the people of Darfur in reaching a just and lasting peace.

Whitehouse
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 03:34 pm
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The point is that inspecting something that might be a lethal danger so that you don't get murdered down the road can be justifiable, even if the test result is negative.


What he's trying to say is:

Brandon9000 wrote:
No, I did not ever claim that the invasion of Iraq was motivated by a desire to fight terrorism. Show me a post in which I said that.

Who is talking about terrorism? I certainly am not.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 03:35 pm
Old Europe:

The rest of the world would turn blue and die from lack of oxygen if they were to hold their breath in the hopes of any accountability within this corrupt administration.

Save your breath. Whatever ideological change that can take place in this country is gonna have to happen internally. We can only hope that the American people will finally wake up and take notice of Bush's propogandist pResidency, which we all know is being brilliantly run by the devious Mr. Karl Rove.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 03:40 pm
We do care.

You can care to.

PUBLIC DONATION INFORMATION
• The most effective way people can assist relief efforts is by making cash contributions to humanitarian organizations that are conducting relief operations. A list of humanitarian organizations that are accepting cash donations for their humanitarian emergency response efforts in Darfur, Sudan can be found at www.interaction.org.
• USAID encourages cash donations because they: allow aid professionals to procure the exact items needed (often in the affected region); reduce the burden on scarce resources (such as transportation routes, staff time, warehouse space, etc); can be transferred very quickly and without transportation costs; support the economy of the disaster-stricken region; ensure culturally, dietary, and environmentally appropriate assistance.
• More information on making donations and volunteering can be found at:
o U.S. Agency for International Development: www.usaid.gov - keyword: donations
o The Center for International Disaster Information: www.cidi.org or 703-276-1914
o InterAction: www.interaction.org -> "How You Can Help"
• Information on relief activities of the humanitarian community can be found at www.reliefweb.org
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