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The UK General Election 2005 Thread

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 08:54 pm
Thou hadst best be grateful that she had not agreed with only part of thee, as opposed to all of thee, as thou wouldst surely have suffered an injury.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 12:22 am
Gadzooks,

I wilst heed thine advice and guard mine own Codpiece with the utmost care, perchance the Maiden doth change her mind.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 07:34 am
Moving on........did anyone see the grilling of the three leaders on "Questiontime" last night (Thurs). ??

I thought that out of the three of them, Charles Kennedy came across as by far the most genuine, and received a very loud round of applause at the end.

Howard was like an automaton, and Blair seemed totally pi**ed off with the whole thing. God, did he get a grilling.

I bet it does the Lib Dem cause no harm at all.
0 Replies
 
kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 07:37 am
Entirely agree, your Lordship.

Kennedy appeared to have a real passion for the differences that politicians can make.

Howard - I switched over because I heard enough of his "L"ish words!!! Laughing

Blair was given a real roasting but (to me) appeared like a real world leader rather than a pretender to the throne. His (near) endorsement of Gordon Brown was very interestingly handled.

KP
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2005 07:43 am
I think Blair is going for the sympathy vote.

Looking old and haggard he was saying

"you know I dont really have to go through all this..but destiny calls"

Agree Howard is scary and irritating at the same time

"Power to the Pipple"
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 12:07 pm
The Labour Party is now insistently campaiging on the theme that voting for the Liberal Democrats will yield a Tory government. There's only one problem with it: it's not true.

Specifically, the Blair claim that even if just 1 in 10 Labour voters switches to the Libdems, that will bring in Howard 'through the back door' is quite untrue, as revealed by The Independent today.

(One would think that, with the trust and spin issue already on top of the news, Blair would be wiser than once again spinning up untruths, but it's the nature of the animal, I guess.)

The Independent today had this full front page story on it all (I've added the headlines from the print newspaper to the text of the article, which is online here):

Quote:
EXPOSED The myth of Labour's tactical voting scare

Vote for Lib Dems will not let in Tories


By Andrew Grice,
Political Editor
30 April 2005

Labour's attempts to warn its wavering supporters that a vote for the Liberal Democrats could allow Michael Howard into No. 10 "by the back door" was undermined yesterday in a detailed study carried out for The Independent. The study found that a swing of 11.5 per cent from Labour voters to the Liberal Democrats could deprive Mr Blair of his overall Commons majority but it would be virtually impossible for such defections - at even twice that rate - to let in the Conservatives to form a government.

John Curtice, the respected psephologist and professor of politics at Strathclyde University, who carried out the analysis, said: "Labour's claim that switching from Labour to the Liberal Democrats could enable Mr Howard to win the election is highly misleading."

Professor Curtice said: "It is even highly unlikely any swing could result in the Conservatives becoming the largest party. The most likely consequence of any large switch from Labour to the Liberal Democrats is simply nobody would have an overall majority." His study came as Labour sought to deflect attention from the row over the war in Iraq, with cabinet ministers raising the spectre of a Tory victory - made possible by disenchanted Labour voters deserting for Charles Kennedy's party.

Mr Blair led the co-ordinated campaign and it became a recurrent theme on many of the Labour campaign spots. However, the "Lab-to-Lib Dem swingometer" Professor Curtice devised shows that, even if there is a 9 per cent swing from Labour to the Liberal Democrats, Labour would still have an overall majority of 48.

Labour's spectre of Howard 'by the back door' is false

Even with a massive 15 per cent swing, Labour would still be the largest party in a hung parliament with 50 more seats than the Tories. Those figures are based on the Tories doing no better than the 33 per cent share of the vote they won in 2001, which is also in line with their current opinion poll rating.

Even if the Tories improve their showing and win 36 per cent of the votes next Thursday - a three-percentage point rise at Labour's expense - and there were a 9 per cent swing from Labour to the Liberal Democrats over and above that, Labour would be the largest party in a hung parliament with 43 seats more than the Tories. The "Lab- to-Lib Dem" swing would have to be a huge 15 per cent before the Tories became the largest party - but they would be outnumbered by the combined forces of the other two parties.

The study found that the Tories come nowhere near to passing the winning post of 324 seats they would need to form a government. Crucially, if enough people switched from Labour to the Liberal Democrats, Mr Kennedy's party would start to win seats instead of the Tories -so the result would be a hung parliament rather than a Tory government.

In those circumstances, according to senior Labour and Liberal Democrat figures, the most likely outcome would be a deal between the two parties to keep the Tories out.

In an attempt to limit the damage after Iraq moved to the top of the election agenda, Labour is raising the spectre of Mr Howard being installed in Downing Street by next Friday. It plans a poster depicting the Tory leader and a warning that spurning Labour could allow him into No 10 "through the back door".

Mr Blair led the charge yesterday when he claimed: "It only takes one in 10 of our voters to drift off to the Liberal Democrats and you end up with a Tory government." But Professor Curtice said: "Labour would need to lose around one in four of its voters before its majority would be threatened, not just one in 10."

He also rejected another claim by Labour - that if only one in 50 Labour voters in 80 marginal seats back the Liberal Democrats or abstain, there would be a Conservative government.

Professor Curtice replied: "If Labour lose 80 seats, then Tony Blair does indeed lose his majority with just 323 seats. But 80 extra Conservative seats leaves Michael Howard with just 245 seats, still 79 short of a majority.

"It is inconceivable that Michael Howard would be able to form a government in such circumstances. Labour's message seems to confuse the possibility of their own 'defeat' with a 'victory' for Mr Howard."

Mr Kennedy said: "There is no chance whatsoever of the Conservatives getting in by the back, the side or any other door because they have lost this election and people know they have lost.

"After eight years in power with three-figure majorities and a benign economic backdrop, if the best you can turn round to the country and say is, 'Well, you must not vote for the Liberal Democrats for fear of something worse,' that just shows you what thin ice Tony Blair is on."

Labour stood by its claims last night. A party source said: "If people value progress and want to accelerate change, they can't afford to abstain or flirt with the Liberal Democrats. If you value it, vote for it. That is the clear message we will be taking to every corner of the country in the days to come."

Although the Liberal Democrats do not campaign openly for a hung parliament, they suspect some voters would prefer that outcome to a big Labour majority. A poll by ICM showed that, if people thought Mr Kennedy's party could win in their constituency, 39 per cent would vote for it, with 31 per cent backing Labour and 26 per cent backing the Tories.

The print newspaper also has front page graphs. They show that, with a 3% Labour swing to the Lib Dems, the Libdems would win 2 seats, the Tories would win 6 and Labour would retain a 136-seat majority. With a 6% Lab-> Libdem swing, the Libdems would win 11, the Tories 17 and Labour would retain a 96-seat majority. Even with a hypothetical massive 9% swing, the Libdems would win 22, the Tories 28 and Labour would still retain a 48-seat majority.

An accompanying page-2 article that's unfortunately not available online adds detail. It's headlined "Lib-Dem advance would hit Blair - but still leave Howard without hope".

It has two tables. The first one lists the results in Parliament for Lab->Libdem swings of various sizes, should the Tories get the same 33% they had last time. The second one lists the results of the same swings, should the Tories also gain 3% and get 36% (which would be significantly more than current polls suggest).

The result in both cases is the same: at no point in time would the swing create an actual Tory majority in the House of Commons. rom respectively 6% or 12% upwards, the swing would rob Labour of its majority - but it would still be the largest party in a hung parliament. Only if the swing would be an incredible 15-21% would the Conservatives become the largest party - but it would still lack a majority of its own, and Lab and LibDem would together be able to keep the Tories out. And with a most improbable swing larger even than that, the Libdems would themselves become the largest party in a hung parliament.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 12:06 am
OK people, I think It's time to have our own little forecast as to the outcome of tomorrow's General Election. What do you think? Only for fun, and a big pat on the back to whoever is the closest.

Seats up for grabs this time around totals 646.

At present, Parliament consists of 657 (408 Labour) (160 Con) (55 LibDem) and (34 "other").

As this board runs eight hours behind civilised time, all forecasts should be in by 11.59pm A2K time, on 4th May. This should fix all the forecasts before the polling stations get going properly.

NO LATER EDITS ALLOWED (for obvious reasons).

Forecasts for the above four groups only, and how much of a majority (or not as the case may be) the winning party will have. Go on, give it a go. You only have your A2K political credibility to lose.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 12:12 am
If you want a guide as to how the consituencies fared last time around, here is a brilliant little map (windows), giving you the full voting figures for your area (apart from inner London by the looks). I have checked about ten of these figures for verification, and they were all accurate.
When making your forecast, bear in mind that these figures are taken from the 2001 election, and a lot has happened since.....Iraq especially.


http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/projects/electionmap/
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 12:17 am
My forecast is :-

Labour = 346
Cons = 176
LibDem= 86
Other = 38

Overall majority for Labour will be 46.
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kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 03:48 am
My guesstimate:

Labour = 353
Cons = 185
LibDem= 80
Other = 39

Overall majority for Labour will be 49.

KP
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 04:17 am
excellent site Ellpus thanks

Sorry I cant give a detailed guess...ok I will

Lab 390
Con 165
LibDem 70
Other 32

Lab maj 123



i.e not much change

I think the Labour scare tactic is working to some extent. The Tories are hopeless. We who object to being lied to over the war, tend to forget that a lot of people don't care or think the war was "the right thing to do".
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 08:26 am
I think the Labour scare tactics are working as well, chasing would-be LibDem voters back into its camp (using deceptive arguments, I'll add). So I dont think the Libdems will do as well as it may seem right now.

Besides, even on a 6,5% swing from Labour to Libdems, which wouldn't be entirely unthinkable with the resentments among old Labour voters, the Libdems would still only gain 15 seats, bringing 'em to 66. (See the BBC Swingometer).

It's actually still from the Conservatives that the Libdems would stand to gain most. On a 6,5% swing from Tories to Liberals, the Libdems would gain no less than 28 seats. But it's there that I'm sceptic.

It's all great and fine for the Libdems' outreach to disgruntled Labour voters to have Brian Sedgemore defecting to Kennedy. But what kind of message does the picture of Kennedy heralding this old Bennite send to the key marginals in the South, where the Libdems only got into a head-to-head with the Tories because the voters there considered even mainstream Labour too leftwing?

I mean, Sedgemore opposed Michael Foot - from the left. I doubt that whole scene - and all the related ones - has done much to boost Libdems chances re: a Conservative-to-Libdem swing.

Basically I don't think the Conservatives will lose much to 'em this time round. Especially because the acrimony Lab vs Lib rhetorics has taken on this week also discourages the tactical voting that might have Labour supporters helping the Libdems to unseat Tory MPs.

But I dont think Howard will win much either, not from the Libdems nor from Labour. It's great, in fact, that Howard's scare campaign on asylum-seekers, the kind that served rightwing populists so horrifyingly well elsewhere, has seemed to have zero effect on the overall polls in the UK. It'll be gratifying to see him lose and hopefully, thereafter be dumped.

The only surprise may lie in the way the Tory campaign has really honed in on a selection of marginals, with a very locally focused campaign. It did net Howard a surprise victory in Australia back then. Never know. Not enough to win the elections, for sure, but perhaps some individual surprise upsets.

Labour meanwhile will lose percentage points to the Libdems, but not as many as expected. And with the swingometer really only kicking in with a swing of over 10%, I dont see it resulting in many lost seats in any case. Which is a pity. If the Labour majority would be reduced to 50 or something, it would really empower the Labour dissidents. Dont think it'll happen.

Now, next question: do you think, should Blair end up with a three-digit majority after all, will he then again try to sideline Brown? Claim the victory as the proof people want Blairite New Labour after all, and attempt to stay in charge throughout the four years? Now there's something you'd want to preempt ...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 08:29 am
By the way, I love the flair of British news reporting, but I wish it weren't all so goddamned partisan. I've started buying both the Guardian and the Independent now, because as the election draws nearer, the Independent writes ever more strident anti-Labour, pro-Libdem pieces (not just in the comments section, but throughout), while the Guardian, less openly, manages to every day reinforce the Labour talking points, by publishing features that just happen to 'prove' or echo them. It's well annoying. And no, forget the rabidly Tory Telegraph as alternative.
0 Replies
 
kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 09:20 am
nimh

You should see the Daily Mail if you really want to see Michael Howard's scare stories held up as shining examples...the Torygraph is quite restrained in comparison!

I hope you are right about the Labour majority, even if I disagree that Blair will want to go on forever - Brown's time will come quite soon, I believe.

KP
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2005 04:13 pm
Some thoughtful posts nimh, wish I could comment as well on Dutch politics.

But the idea that a much reduced majority will give Labour a bloody nose and force an old labour thrust to policy is not going to happen.

If Labour do end up with 40-70 majority it will only prove that they have not worked hard enough to cater for "middle England", i.e. it will strenghten the new Labour faction and make Labour more Blairite, even if led by Brown.

Ref. the Guardian. They published an excellent leader column yesterday, Tuesday. Well worth reading if you can find it. Sorry but too tired right now to dig out the link.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 03:36 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
If Labour do end up with 40-70 majority it will only prove that they have not worked hard enough to cater for "middle England", i.e. it will strenghten the new Labour faction and make Labour more Blairite, even if led by Brown.

Not if the %ages of votes they lost mainly went to the Libdems rather than the Tories. In that case the argument that they'd won it if they'd only moved even farther to the right would be pretty impossible to maintain.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Ref. the Guardian. They published an excellent leader column yesterday, Tuesday. Well worth reading if you can find it.

I'd already seen it, thanks. See my comment above about The Guardian vs The Independent. I truly wish there was a paper out there that didnt make me continually suspicious of partisan agendas.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 03:43 am
I'll admit that today's polls are a tad worrying though.

YouGov:
Lab 37 +1
Con 32 n/c
Lib 24 -1

Populus:
Lab 38 -4
Con 32 +3
Lib 21 n/c

NOP:
Lab 36 -4
Con 33 +3
Lib 23 +2

ICM:
Lab 38 -1
Con 32 +1
Lib 22 n/c

Then again, due to how the electoral system's set up, Labour would even get in with a sizable majority if the Conservatives got as many votes as them - and they're still not anywhere close to that.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 03:53 am
some bookmakers are already paying out on a Labour victory. They tend to know a thing or two.

The great day has finally arrived. Its cool and cloudy so I will not vote, hang on the sun is coming out, so I might vote...but for who?

Will probably make up my mind walking to the polling booth.

But the British consulate has been attacked in NYC. So its probably too dangerous to go out. There really isnt enough time to consider all the options...what to do?

Cup of tea I think.
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 04:41 am
I voted before coming into work....the polling station was right by my bus stop
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 04:59 am
Finally

Decided.

I will walk to the polling station. If I'm not blown up or kidnapped I will think about voting for the [censored] Party.

But it might rain, so I will certainly take an umbrella. That's probably enough decision making for one day.

On the other hand, I might write a few terse comments on the ballot paper and deliberately spoil it.

And this is what I would write

Dear Tony

You can take the country to war, thats ok.
You can take the country into a war of doubtful legality, thats ok provided its really necessary.
But you cant take the country into an illegal and unnecessary war and LOSE it. It doesnt matter what George Bush promised. The war has not achieved its most basic objectives. Oil production is down. Terrorism is up. SOMEONE has to pay the price for naively trusting in the good faith and competence of the Americans. You might say you had no option. I can understand that. But you alone are not government. What you did to persuade your cabinet colleagues, the Labour party, Parliament and the people amounted to gross deception. It is in my view the biggest political scandal this country has seen for many decades. I have always regarded voting as a sacred duty. After all many people have died for universal suffrage. But today by writing this, I am spoiling my ballot to protest about the lies and deceptions that were practised upon us in the lead up to the war in Iraq. And if that risks letting in a Conservative government, I'm willing to take that risk, just as you gambled with George Bush over the fate of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
 

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