Does Religion Have a Place in the Future of Humankind?

Oh, and by the way, Rex. That is my favorite line in the movie. Then of course the part where Doc Holliday spins the little metal cup all over the place like a gun trick. Have to admit, I never miss that film when it's on.

How about the historical records of the ancient Romans that indeed say that Jesus was a living being who actually existed?

Rex




Where is your proof that Christ ever said or did the things attributed to him? Everything is hearsay. Not one shred of evidence exists to support any of the supposed happenings. In fact I would ask what is the pillar upon which Christianity rests. From where did the creation theory come or Monotheism or for that matter the concept of the messiah. You can believe what you will and have been taught but don't try to sell it as absolute truth. In my opinion it as is every other religion is a cult that made good.

00 Agent


The fact that he existed in no way substantiates any of the myths attributed to him.

I'd like to take this opportunity to inform everyone that nothing in the Bible has been disproven. I'd like to see your evidence that proves that Jesus did not do what he did.

Wow, you're good at answering your own questions.

Except that the Bible isn't the only source for Jesus' existence-- there are many ancient documents and such that point to this. Indeed, even if you don't believe in him as the Son of God, it's hard to deny that he was a real person.



Many inconsistencies? Name one. If you can, you'll surely get your name in the paper, since there are no inconsistencies in the Bible.



Pick up a flippin' history book, man. Study texts that come from the time period. Anyone with a brain cell and the ability to read can see that the Bible isn't the only source referring to this "Jesus".



I know, I love that movie! Doc is so awesome, and the way he mocks Johnny Ringo throughout-- even up until the showdown in the woods-- is timeless. :wink:



The Bible, genius. You know, that thing with words in it that provides the history of Jesus' life and teachings? Ask your local librarian about it.



Are you kidding me?! Read the "The Skeptic's Annotated Bible: Corrected and Explained" for all of the evidence that supports the Bible. There's no way I could even hope to post a little bit of the immense amount of this evidence out there.

Do you realize that the Bible has almost 100 times the credibility as any other ancient text, including those from philosophers like Aristotle? If you don't believe anything in the Bible is true, then you really have no basis to believe in anything in history before like the 11th Century.

The question about the Bible is about it's spiritual content, not its historical content. Even the strongest of atheistic history scholars will tell you that the Bible is true to history. That should be evidence enough.



It rests on faith. Faith in an all-powerful, loving God, as outlined in that text known as the Bible.



Again, that Bible thing. Seriously, pick it up from your librarian and read it sometime.



I'll say it again: Cogito ergo sum. There is no absolute truth without faith, except that you exist. Everything rests on faith-- faith in your senses all the way up to faith in one's God.

My God has all the absolute truth there is. Where do you find you're absolute truth? Or do you have any?



He wasn't replying to you, buddy, and he wasn't trying to prove the "myths" associated with Jesus. He was replying to cicerone's challenge that there is no proof of Jesus' existence period. Don't take it out of context.

agent

What in the Bible has been proven? Not a darn thing.

Again, you can believe what you choose to but stop trying to foist it on the rest of us as the unvarnished truth. Which it is not!!

I suggest that you read Rex's newest post regarding the Bible itself. It pretty much sums up my argument right there.

Rex
Quote:
In fact I would ask what is the pillar upon which Christianity rests.

Rex wrote
It rests on faith. Faith in an all-powerful, loving God, as outlined in that text known as the Bible.

Quote:
From where did the creation theory come or Monotheism or for that matter the concept of the messiah.


Again, that Bible thing. Seriously, pick it up from your librarian and read it sometime.
Yes, and whose bible did Christianity take it from? Judaism is the pillar upon which Christianity stands. Why do you suppose that Christianity did all it could to eradicate Judaism?

Rex wrote


Your God? Even in your passion and blind faith you must be aware that there is only one God. And my people recognized him first. Do i believe in God? Yes. Do I believe in anyway the Jesus myth is true absolutely not.

And now back to the original question. Does religion have a place in the future of humankind. All religion not Just Christianity.
BTW. Islam is the fastest growing religion.

Inconsistencies in the bible. Got more if you want. http://www.geocities.com/closetatheist/dminconsistencies.htm

Here's more. http://www.angelfire.com/on2/strike/

I like the commandment "thou shalt not kill." He then commands his followers to kill. Is anybody confused yet?

If you believe in God, how can you not believe in Jesus? After all, Jesus is God.



Those are not inconsistencies. People like to take things out of context, which is what those two sites are doing. Take a good look at my signature before replying. In the mean time, chew on this: You say that there's an inconsistancy between the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" and a verse in the Bible, telling people to kill. Read this slowly: You. Are. Taking. Everything. Out. Of. Context. Please read that last line two or three more times. The Commandment refers to killling due to greed, revenge, etc., meaning that you cannot decide for yourself to kill or not. Him commanding his followers to kill is not a sin.

More. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/bible.html

OO agent wrote


That is the statement of the year. I do not believe that even your Church esposes that. They claim he is the son of God.
I suggest you review the ten commandments.

Second commandment:You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

"...why has thou forsaken me?" He was talk'n to hisself.

00 wrote


Suggest you take your own sound advice.

No contradictions in the bible, if words can be interpreted in any way to seek truth.
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God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.


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War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


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Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.


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Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.


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Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


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Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


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The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.


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How many stalls and horsemen?
KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.


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Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."


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Human vs. ghostly impregnation
ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


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The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


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The bat is not a bird
LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
LEV 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
LEV 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
LEV 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
LEV 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
LEV 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.


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Rabbits do not chew their cud
LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
'Gerah', the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated 'chew the cud' in the KJV is more exactly 'bring up the cud'. Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.


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Insects do NOT have four feet
LEV 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
LEV 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
LEV 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
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Snails do not melt
PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
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Fowl from waters or ground?
GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


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Odd genetic engineering
GEN 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.
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The shape of the earth
ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Astromical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.


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Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt
GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
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Earth supported?
JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


Heaven supported too
JOB 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
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The hydrological cycle
ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
JOB 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

Storehouses are not part of the cycle



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Order of creation
Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition:
Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

Note that there are "days", "evenings", and "mornings" before the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim", which is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods". In this tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each step that "it was good".

The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)



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How orderly were things created?
#1: Step-by-step. The only discrepancy is that there is no Sun or Moon or stars on the first three "days".
#2: God fixes things up as he goes. The first man is lonely, and is not satisfied with animals. God finally creates a woman for him. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

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How satisfied with creation was he?
#1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.
#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

Excuse me? Whose Bible? There's only one Holy Bible, dude, and Christianity didn't "take" it from anybody.

You wanted to know "where did the creation theory come or Monotheism or for that matter the concept of the messiah." And I answered you saying the Bible. Are you disputing the answer I gave you?



I'd appreciate it if you didn't answer your own questions, because it's a big waste of my time to answer them myself when you go into asking them with your own preconceived bias.

Judaism is not the pillar upon which Christianity stands-- and this is coming from a Christian. Christianity came about from the teachings of Jesus (Jesus Christ-- Christianity...I didn't think I would've had to show this) as shown the the Holy Bible. Faith in God the Father and His son Jesus-- and the teachings thereof in the Bible-- are what Christianity is built upon.

Judaism was simply the name for the religion before Christ came to the earth, and the name for the religion afterwards for those who don't believe he was the Messiah.



What the heck are you talking about? The Holocausts? Because the second one (in Nazi Germany) had nothing to do with Christians, and I can tell you right now that if you mean to talk about the first one (in the post-Roman era) you'll lose that debate-- I've studied the Crusades and such verrry intricately.

So what do you mean "Christianity did all it could to eradicate Judaism"?



Yes, my God. By "my" I do not mean "the God on whom I have a claim for my distinguished services and whom I exploit from the pulpit" or "the God I have done a corner in." By my God I mean that he is a personal God. The same God of Abraham and Moses and Isaac and Jacob.



Can you please quote me where I said there was more than one God? In fact, can you please point me to any statement I've ever made even implying the fact that I believe there is more than one God?

The "my God" statement is means exactly what I explained above, so I dearly hope you do not mean to say that that statement implies that I believe in more than one God.

But, hold on one second-- "even in my passion and blind faith I must be aware that there is only one God. Excuse me, but, if the Bible is not true, then what evidence is there proving a God exists at all?

What makes you think the Torah and the Koran are more definitive examples of a God? It all rests on your faith, doesn't it?



Your people?

Judas Priest, you're lucky I'm not like you, otherwise I might have taken that statement of your out of context and inferred that you believe these "people" are actually "yours" and then went into an entire rant about how you're wrong based on that.

But that's another difference between you and I-- I'm not in the business of taking things out of context and attempting to prove someone else wrong with it.



Good for you, then.



And do I believe in any way that Jesus was a myth? Absolutely not. But both of our claims are based on faith, aren't they?



Because as long as Middle East countries force it upon their inhabitants, they have to be considered Muslims.



Excuse me? He said that "Jesus is God", not that "Jesus is God the Father".

Ever heard of the Trinity-- God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

C'mon, even non-Christians know this.



Read above-- Jesus is God. He's not God the Father, but he's God the Son. Part of the Holy Trinity-- he is divine, and he is God.

I suggest you review the entire Bible. In fact, isn't that what I've continuily advised you to do this entire argument? Now you're not obligated to take my advice by any means, but as long as you continue to make claims on a book you obviously have not read-- or, if you have, either have forgotten what you read or are intentionally ignoring it-- you are making yourself look very silly.



A son talking to his father is talking to himself? Uh, no.



Or maybe read the Bible before you try to refute it. Or maybe learn about Jesus before you attempt to discern his existence as a man and as the divine Son of God.

Or maybe learn not to take things out of context and then call out other people on it. Hypocrit.



cicerone: I will have a response to those inconsistencies in another post. As it is, I do not want this one to be too ultra-long. But rest assured I am not dodging those, and I will post a reply to them.