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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 09:24 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Actually, it lasted six years until this (final) ruling.
The Dutch government already had had plans at that time to reduce CO2 emissions. The point was the amount and the speed to do so.
The government considered it sufficient to reduce emissions by 20% in 2020 compared to 1990, but according to Urgenda, the reduction had to be 25% - the Netherlands had promised this ten years ago.
(See ruling linked above)

So are they only addressing power plant emissions, or also all the other sources of CO2 such as ocean shipping and marine operations, industrial operations, Rotterdam, Schiphol airport, etc.?

And are they also policing Dutch multinationals and global investors for CO2 emissions caused by their economic activities/investments outside the Dutch municipalities?

It sounds like this is only about electrical power and ignores all other causes of CO2 emissions and obstructions to reforestation of developed land.

In short, it sounds like these are limited measures that will result in competitive scapegoating of some people/industries while leaving others unreformed. Reforms are better than scapegoating. Scapegoating only procrastinates real problem-solving.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 09:38 am
@livinglava,
The judgment of the Supreme Court means that former rulings are maintained and thus the Dutch State has to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by at least 25% compared to 1990 by the end of 2020.

Can you give me a clue - your Dutch seems to be better than mine - where the court mentioned all that what you wrote?
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 09:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

The judgment of the Supreme Court means that former rulings are maintained and thus the Dutch State has to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by at least 25% compared to 1990 by the end of 2020.

Can you give me a clue - your Dutch seems to be better than mine - where the court mentioned all that what you wrote?

I was just asking you, since you seem to be knowledgeable about the situation, which CO2 sources are included in the ruling's jurisdiction.

You have only mentioned electrical power generation, not motorized (non-wind/sail-driven) sea-faring vessels used for ocean freight shipping, fishing, etc.

You also didn't mention Rotterdam harbor or Schiphol airport, so I wondered how those were factored in terms of their CO2 emissions.

You also didn't mention global investments and industrial operations, which would generate a lot of CO2 outside of NL municipalities.

You also didn't say anything about land-use that fails to reforest developed land wherever trees and living soil can fit.

All these things would be relevant issues if the goal is to reform the overall carbon budget; but it sounds like this is just a policy focused on electrical power generation.

Do you know enough about it to confirm that its scope is limited to electrical power plants, or are you telling me that you don't and I should do my own research further?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 10:13 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
I was just asking you, since you seem to be knowledgeable about the situation, which CO2 sources are included in the ruling's jurisdiction.
The Hooge Rat is the highest court of the Netherlands.
As far as I understand, no CO2 sources at all were included in this ruling ... because:
the ruling was about whether the Dutch State is obliged to reduce the emission of greenhouse gases from Dutch soil by at least 25% by the end of 2020 compared with 1990 and whether the Court may require the State to do so ("Het gaat in deze zaak om de vraag of de Nederlandse Staat verplicht is de uitstoot van broeikasgassen vanaf Nederlandse bodem per eind 2020 met minstens 25% te verminderen ten opzichte van 1990, en of de rechter de Staat daartoe een bevel kan geven".)
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 11:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
The Hooge Rat is the highest court of the Netherlands.

How can you be sure it's not the King of Spain still?

Quote:
As far as I understand, no CO2 sources at all were included in this ruling ... because:
the ruling was about whether the Dutch State is obliged to reduce the emission of greenhouse gases from Dutch soil by at least 25% by the end of 2020 compared with 1990

So it sounds like they are only considering 'soil' that is regulated by Dutch municipal authorities and not 'soil' utilized in service to Dutch business/trade globally. Presumably, they are leaving regulation of that 'other soil' to 'those other governments,' though such governments may cater to Dutch corporations in an effort to please them and keep their favor and thus business presence.

Even though 'soil' literally refers to dry land, I wonder if it applies to motorized ocean vessels used for shipping, fishing, etc., which operate on water but under Dutch flags.

Further, I wonder what it would take for them to recognize deforested land as having a net-positive effect on CO2 due to the fact dead soil devoid of trees can't absorb/hold carbon. I recall farmer protests recently where Dutch highways were full of tractors, but I don't know if they were protesting the blaming of tractor use or of farm animals that generate methane and displace trees.

There must be some Dutch visions for how to achieve sustainability and carbon-neutrality in that area of Europe, but it doesn't seem the court ruling is focused on anything except cutting power plant emissions.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 11:33 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
The Hooge Rat is the highest court of the Netherlands.
How can you be sure it's not the King of Spain still?[/quote]The highest court in Spain is the Spanish Supreme Court ("Tribunal Supremo").
Neither this court nor the Spanish king has anything to do with the Netherlands (The Kingdom of the Netherlands originated in the aftermath of French Emperor Napoleon I's defeat in 1815. Before that, there was the Batavian Republic, before that - since 1581 - the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands )

livinglava wrote:
So it sounds like they are only considering 'soil' that is regulated by Dutch municipal authorities and not 'soil' utilized in service to Dutch business/trade globally.

a) it's not about "Dutch municipal authorities" but the Dutch state,
b) not only I but especially the court has a different idea what soil ("Nederlandse bodem") means. (Soli/"soil"/"bodem" means 'territory when referring to a country; example: "ius soli".)

livinglava wrote:

There must be some Dutch visions for how to achieve sustainability and carbon-neutrality in that area of Europe, but it doesn't seem the court ruling is focused on anything except cutting power plant emissions.
No, the ruling was not about how to achieve something.

Perhaps you get it, too, when (if) you read the ruling and stop speculating.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 12:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

livinglava wrote:
The Hooge Rat is the highest court of the Netherlands.
How can you be sure it's not the King of Spain still?
The highest court in Spain is the Spanish Supreme Court ("Tribunal Supremo").
Neither this court nor the Spanish king has anything to do with the Netherlands (The Kingdom of the Netherlands originated in the aftermath of French Emperor Napoleon I's defeat in 1815. Before that, there was the Batavian Republic, before that - since 1581 - the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands )[/quote]
I was just joking because there's a line in the Dutch national song about being faithful to the king of Spain. As far as I know, the Dutch revolt was legal, at least in retrospect anyway.

livinglava wrote:
So it sounds like they are only considering 'soil' that is regulated by Dutch municipal authorities and not 'soil' utilized in service to Dutch business/trade globally.

a) it's not about "Dutch municipal authorities" but the Dutch state,
[/quote]
Well, I just meant the governing authorities of the Dutch area of Europe. There is a constitutional monarchy still, I think, but there are some American islands that are included in that and I assume they aren't being subject to the CO2 ruling, but maybe they are too, idk.

Quote:
b) not only I but especially the court has a different idea what soil ("Nederlandse bodem") means. (Soli/"soil"/"bodem" means 'territory when referring to a country; example: "ius soli".)

So are ships flying the flag considered part of the 'soil' then?

Quote:
livinglava wrote:

There must be some Dutch visions for how to achieve sustainability and carbon-neutrality in that area of Europe, but it doesn't seem the court ruling is focused on anything except cutting power plant emissions.
No, the ruling was not about how to achieve something.

Perhaps you get it, too, when (if) you read the ruling and stop speculating.

It just concerns me if certain people/industries are targeted for closures without attention to the bigger picture of other sources of CO2 emissions and reforestation of developed land, which is a neglected area.

People have to be able to live sustainably to cut what they have. Otherwise it would be like cutting the food supply without having a plan for what to eat.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 01:23 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
I was just joking because there's a line in the Dutch national song about being faithful to the king of Spain.
The only mentioning of Spain in the national anthem of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Wilhelmus van Nassouwe, is in the 10th verse:
Niet doet mij meer erbarmen
in mijnen wederspoed
dan dat men ziet verarmen
des Konings landen goed.
Dat u de Spanjaards krenken,
o edel Neerland zoet,
als ik daaraan gedenke,
mijn edel hart dat bloedt.

"Nothing so moves my pity
As seeing through these lands,
Field, village, town and city
Pillaged by roving hands.
O that the Spaniards rape thee,
My Netherlands so sweet,
The thought of that does grip me
Causing my heart to bleed."

It would be peculiar funny, if the House of Orange-Nassau had adopted a hymn about being faithful to the king of Spain.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 01:24 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
there are some American islands that are included in that and I assume they aren't being subject to the CO2 ruling
Four parts of the Kingdom of the Netherlands - namely the Netherlands, Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten . are constituent countries (landen) and participate on a basis of equality as partners in the kingdom.

The Caribbean Netherlands are the three special municipalities (bijzondere gemeenten) of the Netherlands.

The Hoge Raad der Nederlanden is the final court of appeal in civil, criminal, tax cases and certain administrative cases (like this one) in the Netherlands, including Curaçao, Sint Maarten and Aruba.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 01:26 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
So are ships flying the flag considered part of the 'soil' then?[quote
Why, do you think, show ships national flags?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 01:28 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

It just concerns me if certain people/industries are targeted for closures without attention to the bigger picture of other sources of CO2 emissions and reforestation of developed land, which is a neglected area.

People have to be able to live sustainably to cut what they have. Otherwise it would be like cutting the food supply without having a plan for what to eat.
It's good that it concerns you, but that's not what said ruling is about.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 04:05 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

The only mentioning of Spain in the national anthem of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Wilhelmus van Nassouwe, is in the 10th verse:

It would be peculiar funny, if the House of Orange-Nassau had adopted a hymn about being faithful to the king of Spain.

You missed the first verse, i.e. the popular part:

William of Nassau, scion
Of a Dutch and ancient line,
I dedicate undying
Faith to this land of mine.
A prince I am, undaunted,
Of Orange, ever free,
To the king of Spain I've granted
A lifelong loyalty.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 04:07 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

livinglava wrote:
So are ships flying the flag considered part of the 'soil' then?[quote
Why, do you think, show ships national flags?

Google says this:
Quote:

Ships have the nationality of the State whose flag they are entitled to fly and that is why flag state is one of the most important instruments in International Maritime and Admiralty Law. ... There must exist a so called “genuine link” between the State and the ship.
Nationality Of A Vessel: Flag State – The Islander
theislander.net › nationality-of-a-vessel-flag-state
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 04:23 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

livinglava wrote:

It just concerns me if certain people/industries are targeted for closures without attention to the bigger picture of other sources of CO2 emissions and reforestation of developed land, which is a neglected area.

People have to be able to live sustainably to cut what they have. Otherwise it would be like cutting the food supply without having a plan for what to eat.
It's good that it concerns you, but that's not what said ruling is about.

I'm just interested in the overall policy goal and how well it is going to achieve the goal of sustainable climate reform.

Cutting CO2-emitting electrical power generation will have the effect of driving up the price of energy some, which will stimulate solar panel sales and make wind-turbine installations more competitive.

What it won't do is stop people from using gas heating and/or buying biomass chips that are harvested by clear-cutting forests and/or replacing them with planted 'fuel-forests'

Ultimately, what has to happen for everyone, not just people living in the Rhein delta area of Europe where people submit to the authority of his majesty, king of Oranje-Nassau; is that they need to cultivate a total vision of what it means to live sustainably and work toward that.

That area is fully accessible by a network of bike paths and public transit routes, so in that sense it is a sustainability leader. I don't know about other aspects of society/economy, though, especially considering that all the ocean shipping, fishing, port activity, air traffic going through Schiphol airport, and global business dealings/investments are going to all have to eventually reform to support sustainable global economics.

I also think that there is a lot of industrially-powered infrastructure and construction activities that generate lots of good jobs that are beloved by the workers, but I think it will take a lot to make all that industrial activity totally sustainable for a permanent future.

Buildings are compact and densely arranged in most Dutch municipalities, I think, which is footprint-minimization in one sense; but in another the question is whether it isn't ultimately necessary for sustainable climate to reforest all human-inhabited areas so that the soil and tree canopy is able to absorb and retain maximum carbon and allow it to sediment into the ground century upon century.

I have seen some before and after photos of Dutch roads where trees have been added, so it looks like the green ethic has had positive effects, but of course when you are progressive you want to keep thinking of ways to increase carbon density of (non)human living biomass as part of the human environment for the benefit of both and for countless future generations who are going to continue to live on Earth if true sustainability is achieved.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 04:49 pm
@livinglava,
Trees will jack up the planets albido. Do we know the actual quantitative chemistry of CO2 transformation by all means (oceanic algae, emissions reduction), before we start "buying clothes for an unborn baby?
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 05:57 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Trees will jack up the planets albido. Do we know the actual quantitative chemistry of CO2 transformation by all means (oceanic algae, emissions reduction), before we start "buying clothes for an unborn baby?

Land has been deforested to build cities, farms, etc. To restore pre-human land-cover, you have to restore life to all the soil and growing trees just makes sense for carbon sequestration because they can gain wood/carbon-mass for centuries and provide nesting space for birds, squirrels, etc. so that those species can sequester carbon by having large populations.

There is a food chain that snowballs carbon and deposits it as sediments, which build up over geological time to form fossil-fuels. This is the long/deep carbon cycle, and I believe that if we trace out completely what happens to those fossil-fuels underground in the long term, they contribute their energy to the building of new land through volcanism and plate tectonics. It takes lots of energy to push land upward to higher elevations. Tectonic plates can't convert kinetic energy into potential energy without storing up the energy first from the sun and other extraterrestrial sources, such as radioactive meteors.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 06:52 pm
@livinglava,
in many places, trees are NOT the climax vegetation, grasses are. Even the taiga is mostly a boreal savannah. The oceans account for slightly over 60% of all potential carbon transfer and were losing that because theMethyl clathrates are beginning to exhale and bubble to the surface .

Also,Remember that trees exude CO2 when the light levels are low ( like nightime)



As far as your discussion of tectonic plates, Im not sure where you want to go with all that.

Quote:
It takes lots of energy to push land upward to higher elevations
Not really, remember that global tectonics is a phenomenon based on circular geometry of plates moving SIDEWAYS, not up and down.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2019 08:43 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

in many places, trees are NOT the climax vegetation, grasses are. Even the taiga is mostly a boreal savannah. The oceans account for slightly over 60% of all potential carbon transfer and were losing that because theMethyl clathrates are beginning to exhale and bubble to the surface .

Also,Remember that trees exude CO2 when the light levels are low ( like nightime)

Grasses don't hold the same density of carbon per unit volume as wood and they don't live and grow for decades or even centuries like trees. There are lots of areas in the world that were forests before humans cleared them. Tree canopy provides nesting space for birds, squirrels, etc. that perform ecological functions. The overall ecosystem evolves to channel and process carbon, retain and filter water, process/digest detritus, etc. etc.

Some soils may not support trees but that is not the issue. The issue is deforested land that has been developed and converted into infrastructure and farm land without broader considerations of sustainability ramifications that are now being better understood.

Quote:
As far as your discussion of tectonic plates, Im not sure where you want to go with all that.

It's about understanding the planet as an integrated system of machines that perform various functions. Weathering and erosion break down land and wash it downhill where it gradually falls into the ocean. New land has to build up to replace the land that erodes away. Building up land takes energy, just as it does when you put gravel/concrete in a truck and drive it uphill. Volcanoes and other geological processes build land naturally, and it seems that tectonic plate motion involves carbon sediments because diamonds are found in places where plates have slid across one another.

Traditional geology has assumed that all the energy that exists inside the Earth has been there since the Earth formed, but when you see that solar energy is being harvested by the biosphere to 3D print carbon sediments year after year into the ground where they build up and form fossil fuels, it should be clear that those buried/condensed energy forms contribute to geological processes. We can't assume that there's a separation between the energy that powers plate tectonics and new land formation and the energy that builds up and sediments as a result of the biosphere converting sunlight into chemical potential energy. It is only logical that the eventual function of that chemical potential energy is to be converted into gravitational potential energy in the form of new rock and land movements that push land to higher elevations.

We are taking the energy that sustains the land-water topological variation and tapping it for industrial uses that ultimately leave the carbon in the atmosphere where it is building up because we are obstructing the 3D-printing process that converts it into biological sediments and ultimately fossil fuels underground.

We need to support the planet's natural processes in order for them to sustain themselves forever, or at least until the sun turns into a red giant in billions of years. That means changing the way we live and utilize resources so that the larger, longer-term carbon cycle and other cycles aren't obstructed from the slow processes that ensure the distant future will be habitable for all future generations.

Quote:
Not really, remember that global tectonics is a phenomenon based on circular geometry of plates moving SIDEWAYS, not up and down.

I'm surprised you haven't thought out what you are saying here. Momentum continues without additional energy-input in the absence of friction, but the moment force is transferred to do work, energy has to be converted from kinetic to potential form and/or lost as waste heat.

In short, what goes up must draw energy away from the fuel that is pushing it up. Nothing can move uphill against gravity without consuming energy and converting it into gravitational potential energy of position/elevation.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2019 04:40 am
@livinglava,
Im sorry, Im having a hell of a lot of trouble following what your trying to develop here.
Our understanding of the planets "energy budget" as related to tectonics is pretty well thought out. Id suggest you take a read through CONTINENT AND SUPERCONTINENTS ED2 by Rogers and Santosh. Originally published about 15 years ago, its a good depiction of how the movement of continental masses and ocean basins has occurred through the last few Billion years. Its a well written and quite approachable text that may clear up some of your assumptions that are inconsistent with what the evidence shows us.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2019 04:54 am
@livinglava,
Quote:

Grasses don't hold the same density of carbon per unit volume as wood and they don't live and grow for decades or even centuries like trees
Grasslands and savanna's have existed pretty much in place for over 100000 years. (Glacial deposits had pretty much swept entire countries clean of trees during the Pleistocene).

Even earthworms were gone from North America until European settlers brought them along on ships as part of the "Columbian Exchange"
 

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