Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

The cost of the German program to get rid of nuclear plants is already approaching $1 trillion Euros

That's a good one. Do you want to pull my other leg too?

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

The cost of the German program to get rid of nuclear plants is already approaching $1 trillion Euros, plus the grid is becoming increasingly unstable and industry is being ordered to shut down production on almost no notice which is included in the costs because the Germans need to compensate these companies....how much more are battery systems going to add to the bill?

The nuclear energy industry wants to get 15 billion as compensation.
Germany exports 11 TWh electricity per year (2013/14).

I've never heard that any industry has been ordered to shut down production. (Might be that such happened in the GDR before 1990, but actually, we are "a democratic and social federal state".

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I've never heard that any industry has been ordered to shut down production. (Might be that such happened in the GDR before 1990, but actually, we are "a democratic and social federal state".

I'm not sure of your meaning here, however it is widely reported that your Chancellor a few years ago (probably under political threat at the time from the Green party, which appears to have since suffered a decline in popularity) ordered the early shutdown or retirement of a substantial segment of the German nuclear power production capacity. You sometimes parse your meanings and distinctions carefully, but I think that could be fairly described as a shutdown of production.

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@georgeob1,

Well, I've understood "industry is being ordered to shut down production" not related to power stations but to ... industry.

When Merkel 'decided' to close all nuclear power stations by 2020, polls clearly show that most Germans disliked nuclear energy. It was her best try to stay in power - and it worked.

Actually, we produce more electricity now than before the close down. And electricity companies, who invested in alternative energies are doing excellent, while others (especially EON and RWE) try hard to get out of the red figures.

The problem really is that politicians want to stay in power = coal > stone and brown coal mining and industry lobby and workers/employees as voters.

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@Walter Hinteler,

The problem really is that wind and solar energy is expensive and unreliable. The expenses have largly been hidden by government setting up shell games to keep the truth from the people largly by kicking the can down the road, and intil/unless battery technology gets good and economical there is no fix for the reliability problem.

Btw, the industry already set aside 35 billion euros to take down the nuclear plants, the asked for additional 15 billion is a down payment on the rest of the cost.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, I've understood "industry is being ordered to shut down production" not related to power stations but to ... industry.

Well I'll readily agree that Germany is not ever likely to shutdown any industry, particularly one involved in export. It's a sweet situation having an export driven economy and a common currency with one's principal export customers.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Actually, we produce more electricity now than before the close down. And electricity companies, who invested in alternative energies are doing excellent, while others (especially EON and RWE) try hard to get out of the red figures.

Alternative energy companies in Germany in particular are thriving on government subsidies, even to the extent of giving away subsidized power just to get government credits. That's a strange kind of "sustainability".

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@hawkeye10,

It's amazing how 35 billion plus 15 billion adds up to 1 trillion, isn't it?

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, I've understood "industry is being ordered to shut down production" not related to power stations but to ... industry.

Well I'll readily agree that Germany is not ever likely to shutdown any industry, particularly one involved in export. It's a sweet situation having an export driven economy and a common currency with one's principal export customers.

This is pretty much symantics...the german market share for global nuclear plant building is so small as to be pactically irrelavant. Ordering the removal of german nuclear plants is for all intents and purposes ordering the shut down of the german nuclear industry because there is no way that it is economically viable now. The technology will be sold if the german government allows it. I bet that the russians would be top bidder.

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@parados,

parados wrote:

It's amazing how 35 billion plus 15 billion adds up to 1 trillion, isn't it?

The goverment subsidies to set up solar and wind power are already above 600 billion euros. And there are a lot of costs still to come.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Alternative energy companies in Germany in particular are thriving on government subsidies, even to the extent of giving away subsidized power just to get government credits. That's a strange kind of "sustainability".

Not really: we, the private consumers have to pay for it. (All energy consumption industry is exempted. Which is nearly 90% of all companies.)

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Alternative energy companies in Germany in particular are thriving on government subsidies, even to the extent of giving away subsidized power just to get government credits. That's a strange kind of "sustainability".

Not really: we, the private consumers have to pay for it. (All energy consumption industry is exempted. Which is nearly 90% of all companies.)

Who cares how the charges are billed, at the end of the day the german people pay, possibly for generations. And pay not just in financial bills, pay also by having a degraded electrical system, with all of the economic costs that come with that.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

pay also by having a degraded electrical system, with all of the economic costs that come with that.

Might be so. At least, we don't have so many blackouts like in a certain other country. (I only remember them from my childhood.) But that really might happen in Bavaria, since they object two new high-voltage power transmission lines.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Given the unreliability of wind power and adding in huge power transmission losses unless the power is transmitted at super high voltage those in the south have the most to be concerned about. Plus a lot of the german industry is in the south, and they need a reliable grid. Not only do the bavarians not want their viewshed ruined, they have other legit concerns. What have read is that the Bavarians would rather take their chances with Russia than with the system that the national government set up, that they want to build natural gas plants in Bavaria rather than piping in power from the North Sea. Is that not so?

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@hawkeye10,

No. The Bavarian government is generally (and especially the Bavarian prime minister) pro-renewable energies ... the "but not in my backyard attitude" has/had to do with elections.

They've indeed planned to build new gas plants - although the already existing there rarely deliver electricity in the net.

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@hawkeye10,

The cost of building other power sources is part of the cost of shutting down nuclear plants? I guess you might as well add in the cost of running this website as well. Drunk

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@parados,

Quote:

The costs of the new policy are extremely high. One German minister said last year that its shift to energy generation based on renewable sources would cost one trillion euros

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/11258079/Green-energy-subsidies-make-it-too-costly-to-keep-the-lights-on.html

Now you can shut up.

My understanding is the subsidy promises, which will be paid by the germans eventually, currently total 630 billion euros. With more charges to come, because the system is not yet built out, and it is not very reliable, and because it produces more green house gasses than the Germans have committed to cutting.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/assets/images/story/2013/3/18/9-large-2012-german-nuclear-gas-fired-generation-falls-further-while-renewables-grow.jpg

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

No. The Bavarian government is generally (and especially the Bavarian prime minister) pro-renewable energies ... the "but not in my backyard attitude" has/had to do with elections.

They've indeed planned to build new gas plants - although the already existing there rarely deliver electricity in the net.

I say "Bavarians" and you automaticity substitute "bavarian government". Interesting.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
The costs of the new policy are extremely high. One German minister said last year that its shift to energy generation based on renewable sources would cost one trillion euros

I really would like to know who this "one German minister" has been - a fedral minister? From some state?

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I say "Bavarians" and you automaticity substitute "bavarian government". Interesting.

Well, it's the Bavarian government opposing those two power lines in our second chamber, most of those are Bavarians, some Upper and Lower Franconians, too, plus one Swabian.

1 Reply

Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

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