ionus, the ice is laid down all the time, remember we're talking areas of permanent ice cover (normally speaking, under conditions of the last few million years, we may be changing that). It's not a case of "hot period" or "cold period". So you have a continuous record going back 600K years (pressure liquifies the bottommost layers of glaciers, so that's as far back as we can go with ice cores). Atmospheric gases are trapped in small bubbles in the ice, so it's more or less a direct read on the paleoCO2.
Milankovitch cycles don't get colder or warmer, they're in essence the trigger which results in more or less insolation and a complex of forcings and feedbacks which result in cooling or warming, but the Milankovitch change isn't enough by itself, without that whole process, to cause an ice age.
And yeah, Milankovitch cycles can produce warmer temperatures---that's us. We're at the warm end. Most of the time it's colder. If you mean warmer than today, it pretty much looks like we're where it stops and goes back the other way. If you'd asked 20000 years ago, I'd have said, sure, the cycle can get warmer, can't get much colder though. But you didn't ask then, did you?
the ice is laid down all the time, remember we're talking areas of permanent ice cover (normally speaking, under conditions of the last few million years, we may be changing that).
So where is this permanent ice cover, because we have had several glacial advances and retreats since this 600,000 year marker you speak of. 20,000 year ago we were coming out of the Würm (70,000"10,000 years ago) glaciation in the Alpine region. North America was in the peak of the Wisconsin Stage (26,000 to 13,300 years ago), and ice sheets extended to about 45 degrees north latitude. So we have one glacial stage melting whilst another is at its peak. The earth has had ice for only 10% of its history.
Quote:
the Milankovitch change isn't enough by itself, without that whole process, to cause an ice age.
So what causes an Ice Age ? What has ended the Ice Ages in the past ?
0 Replies
MontereyJack
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Sat 20 Feb, 2010 08:40 am
In Greenland (last 400K years) and Antarctica (last 600K years), continuous ice cores, ionus.
But these ice shelfs are new. 600,000 years is nothin unless you think aunt Nellie lived for 80 years and that was a very long time. How many Milankovitch cycles came and went yet we stayed in an ice age, just the glaciers advanced and retreated. Obviously there are other more important factors. If none of them have changed, and solar cycles are not over riding them, how is CO2 going to over ride them ?
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ican711nm
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Sun 21 Feb, 2010 01:03 pm
THE RADICAL LEFT'S HUMAN CAUSED GLOBAL WARMING
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BARACK OBAMA'S RULES FOR REVOLUTION, THE ALINSKY MODEL by David Horowitz
Three of Obama's mentors in Chicago were trained by Saul Alinsky. Obama was hired in 1986 by the Alinsky team to organize residents on the South Side. The proposed solution to every problem on the South Side was distribution of government funds.
According to Alinsky, radicals should be “political relativists.” They should take an agnostic view of means and ends.
The revolutionary’s purpose is to undermine the system by taking from the HAVES and giving it to the HAVENOTS and then see what happens
We are not virtuous by not wanting power. We are really cowards for not wanting power, because power is good and powerlessness is evil.
Alinsky's most basic principle for radicals is: lie to opponents and disarm them by pretending to be moderates and liberals.
Alinsky stated, " the issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution." The stated cause is never the real cause, but only an occasion to advance the real cause which is accumulation of power to make the revolution.
Alinsky's demagogic standard of the revolution is democracy--a democracy which upends all social hierarchies, including those based on merit. Alinsky built his initial power base among the underclass and the urban poor by calling to make the last ones first and the first ones also last ones.
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Human caused Global Warming and Cap and Trade, et al, are not the radical left's real issue. The issue is the radical left's revolution. The stated cause is never the real cause, but only an occasion to advance the real cause which is accumulation of power to make the radical's revolution.
Jan-Dec Global Mean Temperature over Land & Ocean
During the 100 year period, 1910 to 2010,
THE MEAN ANNUAL GLOBAL TEMPERATURE INCREASED LESS THAN 1°C (1.8°F).
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2009 Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2009
During the 100 year period, 1910 to 2010,
THE AVERAGE ANNUAL GLOBAL TEMPERATURE INCREASED LESS THAN 1°C (1.8°F).
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report 368
Atmospheric scientist Dr. Chris Walcek is a professor at the University at Albany in NY and a Senior Research Associate at the Atmospheric Sciences Research Center who studies the relationship of pollutants within the atmosphere. Walcek is also a skeptic of man-made global warming fears. "10,000 years ago we were sitting under 2,000 feet of ice right here. It looked like Antarctica right here. And then over a one to two thousand year period, we went into today's climate and the cause of that change is not, well, nobody has a definitive theory about why that happened," Walcek said according to a November 6, 2007 article. (LINK) In a separate May 5, 2007 interview, Walcek expanded on his climate skepticism and accused former Vice President Al Gore of having "exaggerated" part of his film. "A lot of the imagery like hurricanes and tornados. And as far as tornados go, there is no evidence at all that tornados are affected. And a recent committee of scientists concluded that there isn't a strong correlation between climate change and hurricane intensity. A lot of people are saying we're going to see more Katrina's and there's just not much evidence of that. We have had strong hurricanes throughout the last hundred years and we're probably going to have strong hurricanes once in a while," Walcek said. "We are over-due for an ice-age if you look at the geological records, we have had a period of not having a thousand feet of ice sitting here in Albany" New York, he added. (LINK) & (LINK)
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okie
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Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:41 pm
NOAA National Climatic Data Center claims January 2010 was the 4th warmest globally in the last 100 and some years. Seriously, does anyone believe this claim? If so, I have some swamp land I want to sell, give me a call.
I do not believe half of what they tell us anymore.
On the face of it, it is ridiculous. Heavy snow in europe and america, and even snow in australia. 4th warmest in 100 years ?? Give us a break...I bet you they wont buy your land though, okie.
I think there are solid reasons to be still suspicious, Ionus, I don't believe they have cleaned up their act. Take a look at this map showing anomalously suspicious hotspots around the globe, most notably in Russia, and the link below which documents Russia's complaints of cherrypicking their climate monitoring stations to skew the data.
Surface Stations.org has shown that weather stations in the United States have a huge problem of credibility, and it is very probable that other parts of the world have similar credibility problems, even without the cherrypicking problem, but as my quote indicates below, they are apparently guilty of cherrypicking stations to skew the data. It doesn't take the brightest bulb in the house to figure out that a few really bad or hot data points around the globe can skew the number a few tenths of a degree, and that is all we are talking about here folks, a fraction of a degree C.
"It’s true, and it’s huge. Today another example of CRU having their foot on the scale, Russian papers are reporting that the Russian surface station data was sorted by CRU to use the highest warming stations only."
Given the problems in Britain with the lack of professionalism by scientists, I wonder if there is a causative link between Mad Cow Disease and Global Warming ?
If those turkeys could cook 1/10th of the globe with a temperature that is 4 to 5 degrees high, they could essentially change the global average by 0.4 to 0.5 C. The map that I just posted shows parts of Russia as much as 5 to 10 degrees anomalously high, and much larger areas that are 1 to 5 degrees high. I think it is possible that a combination of very poor siting standards and cherrypicked data could account for a few tenths of a degree, Ionus. After all, we now have proof of bad siting standards in many places, and we also have indications of fraudulantly cooked data.
Yes. The truth will win out. I want them charged for fraudulently recieving research money and creating a false alarm. Unless of course they do have Mad Cow Disease.
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ican711nm
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Mon 22 Feb, 2010 01:24 pm
Folks, this human caused global warming fraud is known to its primary advocates to be a fraud. They have nonetheless advocated it so that if it were widely believed, it would lead to a significant means of gaining political and economic power.
Obama and his fellow travelers among others, are disciples of Saul Alinski. According to Alinsky:
The most basic principle for radicals is lie to opponents and disarm them by pretending to be moderates and liberals;
“The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution." The stated cause is never the real cause, but only an occasion to advance the real cause which is accumulation of power to make the revolution.
ican, your quote: "The stated cause is never the real cause,...." explains what we all know, that since the fall of the Soviet Union, the new home of the communist / Marxist movement has become the environmental movement.
Also, the home of the environmental movement is the new home of the Obama/Alinsky health care movement.
Careful ican, opposing Alinsky and his disciple, Obama, could cause you to be accused of being an idealogue!! Don't laugh, its possible, perhaps even likely if George reads your posts.
"Inhofe Weighs Criminal Probe of Scientists' Climate Change E-Mails
The Senate's top global warming skeptic on Tuesday said he would ask the EPA's watchdog to investigate the data once used as the centerpiece of international climate change research and now bolstering an endangerment finding that gives the EPA authority to regulate greenhouse gases."
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ican711nm
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Tue 23 Feb, 2010 10:53 am
@okie,
Okie,
I appreciate yout alert. However, I assume that you as well as I know there is nothing they accuse conservatives of that will deserve our fear. I interpret the slanders and libels of the Obama-Alinskyites as confessions of two things:
(1) They are unable to provide a valid rational counter argument opposing my assertions;
(2) They confirm they are indeed, desciples of Saul Alinsky.
In BARACK OBAMA'S RULES FOR REVOLUTION, THE ALINSKY MODEL, David Horowitz wrote:
According to Alinsky:
Radicals should be “political relativists.” They should take an agnostic view of means and ends;
The radical is not a reformer of the system but its would-be destroyer;
The radical is building his own kingdom, a kingdom of heaven on earth;
The revolutionary’s purpose is to undermine the system by taking from the HAVES and giving it to the HAVENOTS and then see what happens;
We should not forget to acknowledge the very first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom"Lucifer;
We are not virtuous by not wanting power. We are really cowards for not wanting power, because power is good and powerlessness is evil;
The most basic principle for radicals is lie to opponents and disarm them by pretending to be moderates and liberals;
“The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution." The stated cause is never the real cause, but only an occasion to advance the real cause which is accumulation of power to make the revolution;
The standard of the revolution is democracy--a democracy which upends all social hierarchies, including those based on merit.
