71
   

Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 03:12 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
....the usual denialists who seem to spend their time with their head buried in the sand rather than studying the blowing sand.


You aren't talking about the "denialists" that deny any scientific finding or opinion that differs from their own, or that deny access to original temperature records, or deny access to communications about their work, or deny there may be a significant problem with the current data gathering system, or that deny anything that may disagree with their political agenda?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 03:13 am
@MontereyJack,
http://able2know.org/topic/44061-754#post-3850236 Starts around here....
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 02:33 pm
@parados,
Are you prevented, by some cause you have not previously disclosed, from calculating the percentages, parados, for human caused and natural causes of pre-1998 global warming?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 06:47 pm
Has this been posted?

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/02/15/global-warming-insignificant-years-admits-uks-climate-scientist/

"Global Warming in Last 15 Years Insignificant, U.K.'s Top Climate Scientist Admits

The embattled ex-head of the research center at the heart of the Climate-gate scandal dropped a bombshell over the weekend, admitting in an interview with the BBC that there has been no global warming over the past 15 years.

......

Jones also allowed for the possibility that the world as a whole was warmer in medieval times than it is today -- a concession that may also undermine theories that global warming is caused by man."
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 07:52 pm
@okie,
I love it !! Good post, okie. Perhaps the Global Warming Thuggees will be arguing that there is concensus, no reputable scientist disagrees, and anyone who has the audacity to argue with minds like parados and ilk are clearly mad. Or not. Possibly not.

Quote:
Jones also allowed for the possibility that the world as a whole was warmer in medieval times than it is today
Does this ring a bell parody ??
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 08:57 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
and anyone who has the audacity to argue with minds like parados and ilk are clearly mad.

Then I have been that audacious in the past, Ionus, I plead guilty. I mistakenly thought that virtually anyone could be reasoned with, but I found out differently very soon after joining this forum many moons ago when I tried to convince Parados that the Sudan had apparently offered OBL to Bill Clinton, but Clinton turned down the offer. The open shut case that I made to the lawyerly Parados was Bill Clinton's own words of admission, but you guessed it, Parados proceeded to argue the opposite, also using the largely worthless findings of the 9/11 Commission, which was also loaded with partisan Democrat apologists like Parados is.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 11:13 pm
@okie,
Yes. I remember that one. I joined in towards the end of when it was resurrected again.

They fail to realise their greatest weakness is in their insistance they are 100% accurate. In all of human affairs, nothing is that accurate. I have stated that AGW might actually exist, but it can not be proven based on available evidence. It is a guess.

They would do better if they said the evidence points, or suggests, then it would be harder to defeat because one could argue the side benefits to a campaign to ease us off of fossil fuel. But they are their own worst enemy. Arrogance brought down Jones and it will topple them all. Pity, really, because a reasonable approach to removing fossil fuel would be beneficial. This "all of it now or we are doomed" attitude is producing extreme camps on both sides.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 11:24 pm
No global warming for the past 15 years?????

Does this mean it's ok to use more than one sheet of TP now??? Very Happy
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 11:27 pm
@Irishk,
Quote:
Does this mean it's ok to use more than one sheet of TP now???
I will quote from my hero, King Julien : "Who wipes ?"
0 Replies
 
Brand WTF
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 06:06 am
@okie,
Hopefully the GW knee-jerk train will come to a halt.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 08:31 am
@okie,
That's funny how FOX changes what he said..
Quote:
The embattled ex-head of the research center at the heart of the Climate-gate scandal dropped a bombshell over the weekend, admitting in an interview with the BBC that there has been no global warming over the past 15 years.


Quote:
In response to the question, "do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically significant global warming?", Jones said yes, adding that the average increase of 0.12C per year over that time period "is quite close to the significance level. Achieving statistical significance in scientific terms is much more likely for longer periods, and much less likely for shorter periods."


Jone didn't claim there was "no warming" he said the warming that DID occur wasn't statistically significant. One of the reason being it is a short time period.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 08:34 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Jones also allowed for the possibility that the world as a whole was warmer in medieval times than it is today

It does ring a bell. Just not the same bell you have been ringing. Jones also allows for the possibility that it wasn't warmer in medieval times.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 09:40 am
@parados,
Parados, when the term "global warming" is used, it is used to describe more than statistically insignificant fluctuations in the weather and climate. For example, if it is warmer today than yesterday, it does not indicate global warming, it only indicates a statistically insignificant fluctuation. The same principle applies to this year vs last year, and so forth. That is obviously what the news item accurately says.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 10:04 am
@High Seas,
P.S. there seems to be some confusion on this thread about endogenous and exogenous variables (ie variables determined by the model itself or entered into it as outside data). The IPCC "modelers" had no idea how to model cloud cover, or other cover like aerosols and dust, so decided to enter them as exogenous variables - meaning that they entered data consistent with the outcome they were trying to prove.

This is never done in mathematical modeling - never. The IPCC "scientists" deserve all the ridicule that's been heaped on them so far, and then some.

The link to NASA's relevant satellite data is:
http://www-calipso.larc.nasa.gov/
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 10:20 am
That Fox thing is probably the most godawful piece of crap I have seen in recent memory. The author is either completely ignorant of statistics or deliberately misreporting and slanting the piece. Knowing Fox, I'd opt for the latter. It completely misrepresents what was said in the original interview with the BBC, which I gather was Fox's only source. You can get the link to the original interview from the Fox cite.

What Jones says is that it was almost but not quite significant at the 95% level, which is two standard deviations from the mean. It is, in other words, STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT, just not quite at the level where science generally says there's pretty much a total lock on it, so you can expect to get that result in the data maybe 92 or 93% of the time, rather than 95% or more.

And he says that the "almost significant" is largely because the time scale is too short for definitive significance, BUT if you read the orgiinal interview, he says that the three similar intervals which stretch back into the late 19th century have statisticallhy similar rates of increase, which does in fact give us a longer time scale, which should statistically produce a higher confidence interval. Which is why he says he's 100% convinced that global temperatures are in fact rising. He, in other words, is making perfect statistical sense. And why the loon who wrote the headline and termed it "insignificant" is in fact the mathematical and scientific illiterate loon that he is. "Almost but not quite statistically significant at the 95% confidence level" is virtually the complete opposite of "insignificant".

Also saying he "admits the possibility the Medieval Warm Period was warmer than today" is a weaselly misinterpretation of what he says. He says, what is true, is that the so-called Medieval Warm Period is based largely on data from Northern Europe and North America (in fact, if you look at the data, in large part from areas influenced by the Gulfstream and its attendant NAO, which is a completely different process than any global temperature change),
and has not been shown to apply globally rather than just locally. What he in fact says is that so far it hasn't been shown to be global and that it may be globalbut it also MAY NOT BE GLOBAL--that we don't know for sure. So the Fox writer again is slanting the story without evidence.

It in, in other words, a perfect example of why people call Fox News Faux News.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 10:47 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

..... The author is either completely ignorant of statistics .....What Jones says is that it was almost but not quite significant at the 95% level, which is two standard deviations from the mean.....

Jones may or may not be completely ignorant of statistics, but you are. The junior-high-school statistical rule of thumb you quote on 2 sigma only applies to the only distribution you seem to have heard of - colloquially known as "normal".

In climate modeling the distribution is inverse Gaussian (with Wiener filtering) and if you tried to educate yourself in what it looks like, as in looking up chart at top left of this page for instance>
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Inverse_Gaussian_distribution
> you would see it only tends asymptotically to your naively assumed "normal" at infinity, that's in-fi-ni-ty.

I'm not sure if the FOX newscaster cleared that up for you, but I doubt that Prof. Jones could have made the very basic error you just did.

Quote:
.....the inverse Gaussian describes the distribution of the time a Brownian Motion with positive drift takes to reach a fixed positive level...Its cumulant generating function (logarithm of the characteristic function) is the inverse of the cumulant generating function of a Gaussian random variable.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 01:05 pm
Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18991&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
WORLD MAY NOT BE WARMING, SAY SCIENTISTS
The United Nations climate panel faces a new challenge with scientists casting doubt on its claim that global temperatures are rising inexorably because of human pollution, says the Sunday Times.

In its last assessment the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) says the evidence that the world was warming was "unequivocal." It warned that greenhouse gases had already heated the world by 0.7C and that there could be 5C-6C more warming by 2100, with devastating impacts on humanity and wildlife. However, new research, including work by British scientists, casts doubt on such claims. Some even suggest the world may not be warming much at all:

The temperature records cannot be relied on as indicators of global change, says John Christy, professor of atmospheric science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, a former lead author on the IPCC.
The doubts of Christy and a number of other researchers focus on the thousands of weather stations around the world, which have been used to collect temperature data over the past 150 years.

These stations, they believe, have been seriously compromised by factors such as urbanization, changes in land use and, in many cases, being moved from site to site.

Christy has published research papers looking at these effects in three different regions: east Africa, and the American states of California and Alabama.

"The story is the same for each one," he says. "The popular data sets show a lot of warming but the apparent temperature rise was actually caused by local factors affecting the weather stations, such as land development."

The IPCC faces similar criticisms from Ross McKitrick, professor of economics at the University of Guelph, Canada, who was invited by the panel to review its last report.

The experience turned him into a strong critic and he has since published a research paper questioning its methods.

"We concluded, with overwhelming statistical significance, that the IPCC's climate data are contaminated with surface effects from industrialization and data quality problems. These add up to a large warming bias," he says.

Source: Jonathan Leake, "World may not be warming, say scientists," Sunday Times, February 14, 2010.

Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18992&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
THERE HAS BEEN NO GLOBAL WARMING SINCE 1995
The academic at the center of the "Climategate" affair, whose raw data is crucial to the theory of climate change, has admitted that he has trouble "keeping track" of the information.

Colleagues say that the reason Professor Phil Jones has refused Freedom of Information requests is that he may have actually lost the relevant papers:

Professor Jones told the BBC this weekend there was truth in the observations of colleagues that he lacked organizational skills, that his office was swamped with piles of paper and that his record keeping is "not as good as it should be."

The data is crucial to the famous "hockey stick graph" used by climate change advocates to support the theory.

Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now -- suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.

And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no "statistically significant" warming.

The admissions will be seized on by skeptics as fresh evidence that there are serious flaws at the heart of the science of climate change and the orthodoxy that recent rises in temperature are largely man-made.

Professor Jones has been in the spotlight since he stepped down as director of the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit after the leaking of emails that skeptics claim show scientists were manipulating data.

The raw data, collected from hundreds of weather stations around the world and analyzed by his unit, has been used for years to bolster efforts by the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to press governments to cut carbon dioxide emissions.

Following the leak of the emails, Professor Jones has been accused of "scientific fraud" for allegedly deliberately suppressing information and refusing to share vital data with critics.

Source: Jonathan Petre, "Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995," Daily Mail, February 14, 2010.

0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 04:23 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Jone didn't claim there was "no warming" he said the warming that DID occur wasn't statistically significant. One of the reason being it is a short time period.
And you offer this in SUPPORT of Global Warming ???
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 04:24 pm
@parados,
Do you know what it is called if you dont know if it is hotter or colder but you choose one anyway ??? Say it with me...it is a ...GUESS.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 05:02 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Jone didn't claim there was "no warming" he said the warming that DID occur wasn't statistically significant. One of the reason being it is a short time period.
And you offer this in SUPPORT of Global Warming ???

No, since I have NOT argued that global warming exists only in the last 15 years.

I offered it as evidence of how FOX news misrepresented what was said by Jones.

But then I suppose you see it as no sin to labor in your vocation.
 

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