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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:05 am
@parados,
To answer your questions as simply as possible, I have been a bird watcher in the past, and so I understand the difficulty and likely inaccuracies of a number of people that are doing the identifications and counting. It is not an exact science, the identifications are subjective and not determined by an instrument that has been calibrated to do the measurements in a consistent manner. As I have attempted to explain to you already, a scientific measurement done by an instrument is pretty straightforward and exact, while bird identification and counting would be highly influenced by who is doing it, which simple common sense would tell you that it varies. And even if the same people were doing it in all locations, it would still be highly influenced by other factors, including local weather (not climate), time of day, time of the month, and all kinds of factors. I pointed out one other factor that you ignored, which was West Nile Virus, which has wiped out almost entire populations of certain birds in some areas, one that I am aware of is the Magpie.

To summarize, the bird species and numbers, and migratory patterns, are interesting and possibly could add to the debate, but are hardly very deserving of representing solid evidence of something like global warming.

As a matter of note, I grew up on a farm, and as a boy in grade school, I became interested in nature and science, because of a good friend of mine that stimulated my interest in those things. That largely explains why I ended up majoring in geology and pursuing the career that I did. To make a long story short, as a kid, I was very familiar with the wildlife and other natural phenomena around the area, as was my brother and others. We trapped, hunted, and so forth, and as I explained, I became an avid amateur birdwatcher and accumulated long bird lists. I can report to you that the wildlife and bird populations varied by year, as far back as I can remember, which is the early 50's. One year, there was an infestation of field rats, literally hundreds of them in the fields nearby. Everything in nature is cyclical.

I can also attest to the fact that the armadillo has migrated northward from Texas, now into Kansas I understand, as part of its natural range or habitat. Whether this has to do with climate, I do not know. I also know that the number of armadillos has seemed to decrease greatly in the last 3 or 4 years in that area of Oklahoma. There are also many more deer in that area, an animal that we rarely saw as a kid. Also, wild turkey have recently exploded in population, although they have always been around as long as I can remember. The numbers of trees, and types, have also proliferated in the area, primarily due to human influence, but the numbers of cedars in particular have exploded just by nature itself doing the seeding and growth. There are now programs available for farmers to remove the cedars that have taken over entire farms or pastures, so that it can become more productive again.

The point of all of this is that climate is only one factor of many factors, and a bunch of birdwatchers going out and counting bird species, yes it is interesting, but count me as a skeptic in terms of proving anything. It could be considered along with other more reliable forms of data. I go back to the simple fact that weather stations must have reliable siting standards and the temperature data being gathered must be reliable. That is the foundation of any decent scientific research, it is sound and reliable data. So far, I don't think we have even established that, and therefore to liken this science to being in its infancy stage, we have not yet learned to crawl, let alone walk or run. The science has a long way to go to establish any degree of credibility, especially given the politicians that have invaded the science to the point of committing fraud to further their particular political cause.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:09 am
@okie,
Quote:
As I have attempted to explain to you already, a scientific measurement done by an instrument is pretty straightforward and exact,

I thought you were explaining that a scientific measurement done by an instrument is NOT straightforward and exact. Now you are trying to tell me that all those measurements are accurate?

Or are you just going to argue that nothing is accurate if it doesn't give you the result you want?
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:15 am
@parados,
Can you read with comprehension, Parados? An instrument is exact, but the conditions that it is measuring must be consistent. Surely you notice the bank signs that display temperature, which are often inaccurate by at least a degree or more, simply due to the fact that the condition at the point of measurement has been skewed by where the sensor is located. The same principal applies to weather stations, dummy. If you cannot grasp that simple concept, there is no hope for you, Parados.

Good grief, this forum is making me lose faith in fellow man and their capacity to reason.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:19 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Can you read with comprehension, Parados? An instrument is exact, but the conditions that it is measuring must be consistent. Surely you notice the bank signs that display temperature, which are often inaccurate by at least a degree or more, simply due to the fact that the condition at the point of measurement has been skewed by where the sensor is located. The same principal applies to weather stations, dummy. If you cannot grasp that simple concept, there is no hope for you, Parados.


Overly reducing everything to a 'simple concept' is a trap that you and others who don't know much about the scientific process often fall into.

What is happening here, Okie, is that you and others spend all your time looking for 'gotchas!' that will provide enough counter-evidence to the theories which are supported by the vast majority of actual climate scientists to muddy the waters and make it impossible to move forward. That's not real science or a real scientific process; you are essentially applying a political process to science.

And it's not hard to see why; you aren't against Climate change science at all, really, except for the fact that it will cost businesses money to actually deal with the true consequences of their actions instead of offloading that cost on the rest of society. And you could never support anything that lowers business profits, because that **** is antithetical to your whole greed-based mindset.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:24 am
@okie,
Quote:

The point of all of this is that climate is only one factor of many factors, and a bunch of birdwatchers going out and counting bird species, yes it is interesting, but count me as a skeptic in terms of proving anything.


Bird counts are only one of many factors okie which is why I brought them up. You want to ignore each individual thing because to acknowledge it would mean it is part of the huge pile that you really want to pretend doesn't exist.

Birds alone don't show global warming.
Even the temperature readings alone don't show it.
It is all the different things together that make it impossible to ignore.

The problem with your argument okie is one would have to accept that every fact is skewed in one way. That is something I find impossible to believe. It would be like throwing 50 side dice and getting the same number over and over. While it might be possible it is highly unlikely.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:30 am
@parados,
When they can demonstate the weather stations are accurate, let me know Parados, but until then they should be laughed out of town. Serious scientists have to produce reliable and consistently measured data, and so far it hasn't happened. And to suggest that counting birds is a serious substitute for good temperature data, you've lost your mind.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:31 am
@okie,
Quote:
Can you read with comprehension, Parados? An instrument is exact, but the conditions that it is measuring must be consistent.

So if a thermometer is consistently on a pad of concrete then it isn't consistent and can't show a trend?

Your argument doesn't even make any sense okie. Let's assume the thermometers are all off by 4 degrees. What is the likelihood they would show an upward trend if none existed? The answer is "almost zero." Even if the thermometers are all off they would each be affected by their own environment would they not? Wouldn't that environment be consistent so they would always be off the same? Or are you arguing that the same environment for a thermometer leads to an increase in temperature readings?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:37 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

When they can demonstate the weather stations are accurate, let me know Parados, but until then they should be laughed out of town. Serious scientists have to produce reliable and consistently measured data, and so far it hasn't happened. And to suggest that counting birds is a serious substitute for good temperature data, you've lost your mind.

What utter nonsense.
Are you arguing ice can't freeze if my thermometer isn't accurate?

Let's assume I have an thermometer that is off by 10 degrees and always reads 10 degrees warmer.

One day it says the temperature is 48 degrees and the next day it says the temperature is 38 degrees. I also have a bird bath with water in it. One day it is not frozen but the next day it is frozen. Even though my thermometer is clearly not accurate I can use it to tell that the next day is colder than the previous day. I can also use my bird bath to tell the same thing. Together they confirm the trend.

Now let's assume my neighbor has a thermometer and I use his to calibrate mine. I see that mine is off by 10 degrees. Now I have a way to tell actual temperature as well as the trend.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:40 am
@parados,
Common sense should tell you that contamination of temperature by being sited wrong, such as being in an asphalt parking lot or next to an air conditioner or furnace vent, the potential contamination is not a straight line factor, Parados. Some of your reasonings are frankly shear lunacy.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:44 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Common sense should tell you that contamination of temperature by being sited wrong, such as being in an asphalt parking lot or next to an air conditioner or furnace vent, the potential contamination is not a straight line factor, Parados. Some of your reasonings are frankly shear lunacy.


Why is it not a straight-line factor? Asphalt parking lots don't change much, Okie. Why would the temperature around or above them fluctuate wildly?

Parados is once again kicking your ass by showing how poor your logic is, and your responses are not adequate to the job. This - not some 'qualifications' that either of you may or may not have - is why he wins these arguments and you consistently lose them.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:49 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why is it not a straight-line factor? Asphalt parking lots don't change much, Okie. Why would the temperature around or above them fluctuate wildly?Cycloptichorn

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
I would be hard pressed to come up with a better illustration of stupid reasoning that cyclop's own reasoning that he has so kindly supplied.

Thanks for the big laugh you provided today, cyclops. By the way, did you ever take a science course in high school, I won't even mention college?

I can't wait for ican or somebody like that to read this, it should also lighten their day!!!!
okie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:53 am
@okie,
Cyclops, I knew you were a liberal, but I did not know you were also a comedian. At least you have a hidden gift if you have not pursued that line of work!!!!!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 11:59 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why is it not a straight-line factor? Asphalt parking lots don't change much, Okie. Why would the temperature around or above them fluctuate wildly?Cycloptichorn

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
I would be hard pressed to come up with a better illustration of stupid reasoning that cyclop's own reasoning that he has so kindly supplied.

Thanks for the big laugh you provided today, cyclops. By the way, did you ever take a science course in high school, I won't even mention college?

I can't wait for ican or somebody like that to read this, it should also lighten their day!!!!


You have no answer to the question, Okie, and are trying to cover it up with a show of false humor.

You would be better served to simply answer the question: why would the temperature above an asphalt parking lot fluctuate wildly, if the lot itself doesn't change?

Do you even understand the question?

Cycloptichorn
parados
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 12:05 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Common sense should tell you that contamination of temperature by being sited wrong, such as being in an asphalt parking lot or next to an air conditioner or furnace vent, the potential contamination is not a straight line factor, Parados.

So, why isn't it straight line? Do you not use your furnace every year? Do you not use your air conditioner?


Quote:

Some of your reasonings are frankly shear[sic] lunacy.
I do try to be on the cutting edge.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 12:11 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Quote:

According to green estimates, we have cut down the Amazon rain forest several times. We have run out of fossil fuel in 1995. We must do what they say to avoid catastrophe. And of course Global Warming is real and man made. These are fools with meglomania complex that no-one listens to except other fools.


The real question is, how much of global warming is created by humans vs natural trends of this planet. When we compare man-made carbon before the 19th century compared to today, and how that has affected global warming, what was man's creation?

Do you have an answer?
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 02:31 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You have no answer to the question, Okie, and are trying to cover it up with a show of false humor.

You would be better served to simply answer the question: why would the temperature above an asphalt parking lot fluctuate wildly, if the lot itself doesn't change?

Do you even understand the question?

Cycloptichorn

Cyclops, seriously, do you have the ability of logical thinking? Just a few reasons for the probability of the error not being straight line, the sun does not always shine, the factor of the sun is not a straight line, okay? The more the sun shines upon the asphalt, the more potential error would likely exist. Also, try to imagine a bus or a few cars sitting in the parking lot, idling, waiting for one reason or another. The potential of that happening constantly is of course illogical, but the liklihood that it could happen is of course logical, so therefore the potential influence is not a straight line factor, it could be a huge contaminant of the temperature readings one day, but not the next. Imagine also a vehicle parked so that the sun reflects into a weather station, but it may only happen at certain times of the day while the sun's angle is right, that is certainly not straight line. Lets see, how many various things can I think of that could happen in such a situation, I can think of at least one more, that being a giant snow storm, wherein the snowplow could conceivably shove the snow into a huge pile along the edges of the parking lot, very possibly right next to a weather station, which would obviously have another potential corruption of data gathering, either by reflection of the sun's rays into the instruments thus causing inconsistentlyhigher readings., or by causing a cooling effect around the station. It should be totally obvious to anyone with common sense, cyclops, that such effects are not straight line, you cannot come up with some kind of correction factor and crank it into the data, that would be a farce.

Speaking of farces, the entire global warming fiasco is becoming an absolute farce, beginning with the obvious problems with the temperature data. If they could do a decent job of gathering the basic data, that would be a good start to fixing this entire farce.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 02:41 pm
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb
As of December 20, 2007, more than 400 prominent scientists from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
353
Statistician Lenny Smith of the London School of Economics, who co-authored a study on the uncertainties of climate models for the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research in Oxford, dubbed climate modeling "naive realism." "Our models are being over-interpreted and misinterpreted," Smith said, according to a New Scientist article from August 16, 2007. "They are getting better; I don't want to trash them per se. But as we change our predictions, how do we maintain the credibility of the science?" Smith explained. "We need to drop the pretence that they are nearly perfect," he added. The article noted that Smith believes that the "over-interpretation of models is already leading to poor financial decision-making." The article continued: "[Smith] singled out for criticism the British government's UK Climate Impacts Programme and Met Office. He accused both of making detailed climate projections for regions of the UK when global climate models disagree strongly about how climate change will affect the British Isles." (LINK)

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/global-jan-dec-error-bar-pg.gif
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/global-jan-dec-error-bar-pg.gif
Jan-Dec Global Mean Temperature over Land & Ocean
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2009
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2009
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 03:59 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You have no answer to the question, Okie, and are trying to cover it up with a show of false humor.

You would be better served to simply answer the question: why would the temperature above an asphalt parking lot fluctuate wildly, if the lot itself doesn't change?

Do you even understand the question?

Cycloptichorn

Cyclops, seriously, do you have the ability of logical thinking? Just a few reasons for the probability of the error not being straight line, the sun does not always shine


No more so on a parking lot than anywhere else. This doesn't answer the question as to why a station put there would show greater variability.

Quote:
, the factor of the sun is not a straight line, okay? The more the sun shines upon the asphalt, the more potential error would likely exist.


This makes zero sense. I guarantee you that the sun shines no differently upon a parking lot than it does anywhere else. I think you are really confused as to what we are talking about here.

Quote:
Also, try to imagine a bus or a few cars sitting in the parking lot, idling, waiting for one reason or another. The potential of that happening constantly is of course illogical,


Smartest thing you've admitted so far.

Quote:
but the liklihood that it could happen is of course logical, so therefore the potential influence is not a straight line factor, it could be a huge contaminant of the temperature readings one day, but not the next.


If there were huge swings from one day to the next, it wouldn't matter. What matters is averages. Those are unaffected by outliers.
Quote:

Imagine also a vehicle parked so that the sun reflects into a weather station, but it may only happen at certain times of the day while the sun's angle is right, that is certainly not straight line. Lets see, how many various things can I think of that could happen in such a situation, I can think of at least one more, that being a giant snow storm, wherein the snowplow could conceivably shove the snow into a huge pile along the edges of the parking lot, very possibly right next to a weather station, which would obviously have another potential corruption of data gathering, either by reflection of the sun's rays into the instruments thus causing inconsistentlyhigher readings., or by causing a cooling effect around the station. It should be totally obvious to anyone with common sense, cyclops, that such effects are not straight line, you cannot come up with some kind of correction factor and crank it into the data, that would be a farce.


What, did you throw in every bullshit scenario you can think of? You are so ignorant as to how all this works, it's not even funny.

Let me ask you something: do you honestly believe that you, sitting in your underwear typing on your computer, thought about this stuff - and the people who set those weather stations up didn't? What makes you so arrogant as to believe that you know their jobs better then they do?

Quote:
Speaking of farces, the entire global warming fiasco is becoming an absolute farce, beginning with the obvious problems with the temperature data. If they could do a decent job of gathering the basic data, that would be a good start to fixing this entire farce.


You wouldn't give a **** if they did do a better job, because you are not interested in any data which costs businesses money. No matter what the conclusions of the researchers are, you would be against it. Just admit it.

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 04:25 pm
Any motorcyclist in northern England will tell you that riding into a small town after the countryside on nights when it is minus 10 c. is like getting into a warm bath.

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

What is the total amount of fossil fuels, in which is stored energy from millions of years of sunshine, that have been converted into gases and pumped into the atmosphere in the space of the last 100 years?

What is the figure predicted to be over the next hundred years?

Temperature monitoring stations are about creating jobs and equipment sales and hot air arguing about the results.

parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jan, 2010 05:02 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Cyclops, seriously, do you have the ability of logical thinking? Just a few reasons for the probability of the error not being straight line, the sun does not always shine, the factor of the sun is not a straight line, okay? The more the sun shines upon the asphalt, the more potential error would likely exist.

Except most of the sites don't have parking lots that close okie. Making up **** about what could happen doesn't reflect what ACTUALLY happens.

Quote:
Imagine also a vehicle parked so that the sun reflects into a weather station, but it may only happen at certain times of the day while the sun's angle is right, that is certainly not straight line.
A pointless observation okie since the reading isn't based on only one time of the day. But you ignore the fact that the box would have to be already IN THE SUN and heated by that sun for there to be any reflection from a window. As for the sun reflecting INTO the box, that would be practically impossible based on the height of stations and the height of cars and any possible angle of incidence from a window. The weather station would have to be on a hill with the car parked below it for the sun to reflect through the slanted slats on the box off an angled windshield and then the likelihood is such that it wouldn't last for more than 10 minutes.

Quote:
I can think of at least one more, that being a giant snow storm, wherein the snowplow could conceivably shove the snow into a huge pile along the edges of the parking lot, very possibly right next to a weather station, which would obviously have another potential corruption of data gathering, either by reflection of the sun's rays into the instruments thus causing inconsistentlyhigher readings.,

Again. almost impossible due to the angle of the sun during winter and the angle required in the snow. In fact I would say it is completely impossible based on the sun and snow I have seen today. Even if it did reflect, the amount of light that comes off the snow is minimal compared to the sun beating directly on the box. Believe me, you don't feel heat coming off sunlight reflecting off snow. Common sense is not your strong suit when it comes to snow okie since you haven't lived with it obviously.
0 Replies
 
 

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