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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 07:15 pm
@High Seas,
And if I squint really hard it almost looks like the entire Atlantic Ocean is covered in ice like Ionus claimed. But I really, really, really have to squint to make it all look like its covered in white.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 10:04 pm
@Advocate,
Assuming the world will not stay the same forever, we have two possibilities. The world will get colder or hotter. If there is change enough in a single direction, then we will have either:

1. The oceans 5m higher or 80m lower as a absolute maximum possible. Which will affect the worlds reefs and shallow seas more ? Low tide 5m higher or high tide 80m lower ? Which will affect the world's population more ? 25% of people moved to higher ground or the world's ports surrounded by land ?

2. Minimum ice or maximum ice....which will affect people more ? 1km thick ice over North America and Europe and severe winters in Asia or the Polar ice caps melted ? Having 60-80% of the world's people displaced or shipping lanes across the top of the world ?

Everyone is worried about the Polar bear but the Arctic ice has melted before, several times. The Polar bear merges with the brown bear population and re-evolves white again when the ice comes back. How did the Polar Ice melt if evil wicked men werent there to do it ??
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 10:12 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
It is 90 % certain that global warming is man-made.


It is NOT 90% certain, SOME believe it is 90% PROBABLE. It damages your argument if you use emotions to colour facts. It makes you seem afraid of the facts. Or worse, incapable of understanding the argument.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 10:18 pm
@parados,
Quote:
And if I squint really hard it almost looks like the entire Atlantic Ocean is covered in ice like Ionus claimed. But I really, really, really have to squint to make it all look like its covered in white.


You have highlighted a big problem with the Global Warming theory. There are many people who think the world has always been this way. The uneducated mainly. Do you think the world always looked like it is now or the era that map portrays ? Can I assume you are ingnorant as to when the Atlantic was frozen almost down to Spain ? Are you arguing for Global Warming based on a lack of knowledge but based on it just feels right ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 10:27 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Increase taxes of course.


spendius has hit on an important point. If it is straight science, why are some scientists being hysterical in its defence ? Because there is research money in it, whereas there is very little in proving Global Warming is bunkum. All the emotional arguments are for the purse of the people. The public dont understand the science but they know when someone wants their money, so governments are using emotions to get it.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 10:40 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Here is some evidence supporting the existence of global warming.

http://www.ecobridge.org/content/g_evd.htm


Be very suspicious of anyone mixing climate and weather. As little as is known about the climate, even less is known about long term weather. The weather for the last 10,000 years has been remarkably stable. It is not known why. We could be coming out of that stable period for reasons seperate from any Global Climate trend.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 12:50 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus, the new home of anti-capitalists, extreme socialists, communists, etc., is the environmental and global warming movement. It offers a great opportunity for such types to demonize capitalism, diminish it, and replace it if they can swing the deal. Many of the players within the U.N. are of course on that page and are in cahoots with this agenda as well. This entire issue is political, but it is cloaked as science, but falsely so. And then besides the people that are planning on gaining more political power over this, you also have those that plan to profit from it.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 01:11 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Ionus, the new home of anti-capitalists, extreme socialists, communists, etc., is the environmental and global warming movement. It offers a great opportunity for such types to demonize capitalism, diminish it, and replace it if they can swing the deal.


Well, I don't think that e.g the Evangelical Church of Germany, 16 state and one German federal ministry department etc were very happy to by named so.
But since okie has known it all and is full of wisdom - they'll certainly folow his advices ...

But it is interesting that okie widens his phobia now to the environment as well ...
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 02:45 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
It is 90 % certain that global warming is man-made.


It is NOT 90% certain, SOME believe it is 90% PROBABLE. It damages your argument if you use emotions to colour facts. It makes you seem afraid of the facts. Or worse, incapable of understanding the argument.


The statement is based on credible scientific findings of fact, not the right-wing contrarian nonsense that pervades this bulletin board.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 02:47 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Here is some evidence supporting the existence of global warming.

http://www.ecobridge.org/content/g_evd.htm


Be very suspicious of anyone mixing climate and weather. As little as is known about the climate, even less is known about long term weather. The weather for the last 10,000 years has been remarkably stable. It is not known why. We could be coming out of that stable period for reasons seperate from any Global Climate trend.


The warming trend over the past 10 years has far exceeded any other 10-year period. It is the trend that counts, not temperatures over a single year.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 02:52 pm
@parados,
Parados - perhaps you and Ionus aren't looking at the same map; here's the one for maximum extent of permanent ice during the last glaciation that I linked to, from 18,000 years ago:
http://www.scotese.com/images/LGM.jpg
Those ice ice sheets have been melting for 17,950 years before SUVs rolled off the assembly lines, no matter what Advocate claims.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 03:08 pm
@Advocate,
There's not been any warming trend over the last 10 years.
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2009
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 03:37 pm
The Danish Royal Air Force overflies the North Pole regularly, and check the ice thickness with radar; they say polar ice is disappearing much faster than previously predicted and within a few years there will be an ice-free pole in summer. Climate models predicted global warming would show up first and more strongly in the Arctic Circle. It is exceeding those simulations. As we keep telling you.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/33397126#33397126

The facts on the ground and on the water indicate global warming is happening.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 03:38 pm
@MontereyJack,
Monterey - it's been going on for tens of thousands of years...... Please read this page, including map.....
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 04:18 pm
Thank you, High Seas. I had read this page before I answered, as well as pretty much all of the preceding 725. I suggest you read them as well. The fact remains that the melting of ice in the north is unprecedented. Ice cores in the Greenland icecap go back about four ice ages. The ice hasn't melted since then (it hadn't melted before then, either, but ice cap mechanics squeezed the lowest layers out). It's likely to be gone by the turn of the century. Permafrost is melting now than hasn't melted for the last several thousand years. It contains archaeological evidence of the earlier polar-adapted cultures which did NOT live in an ice-free environment. And as parados mentioned, the climate of the arctic has been relatively stable for most of the peiod since the last ice age. It has NOT been a process of gradual warming throughout this interglacial The melting is unprecedented. And explicable as a result of anthropogenic effect on the climate.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 05:15 pm
@MontereyJack,
It's much worse than that Jack. When the permafrost melts a large pile of inert organic material becomes active and starts bubbling.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 08:18 am
The polluters and other miscreants have no concern that they are driving us to the brink of extinction.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20091019_a_reality_check_from_the_brink_of_extinction/
ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 02:05 pm
@Advocate,
Advocat wrote:
The polluters and other miscreants have no concern that they are driving us to the brink of extinction.

I opine that the reason for your hysterical post is not to save "us from the brink of extinction." It is to drive us there faster. I opine that which you really want to save from extinguishing is the politics of destruction of our Constitutional Republic.
Quote:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20091019_a_reality_check_from_the_brink_of_extinction/
A Reality Check From the Brink of Extinction
Posted on Oct 18, 2009

AP / John McConnico
With polar ice caps melting at a record rate, the Arctic is expected to be an open sea during summers within a decade.

By Chris Hedges

We can join Bill McKibben on Oct. 24 in nationwide protests over rising carbon emissions. We can cut our consumption of fossil fuels. We can use less water. We can banish plastic bags. We can install compact fluorescent light bulbs. We can compost in our backyard. But unless we dismantle the corporate state, all those actions will be just as ineffective as the Ghost Dance shirts donned by native American warriors to protect themselves from the bullets of white soldiers at Wounded Knee.
...
The reason the ecosystem is dying is not because we still have a dryer in our basement. It is because corporations look at everything, from human beings to the natural environment, as exploitable commodities. It is because consumption is the engine of corporate profits. We have allowed the corporate state to sell the environmental crisis as a matter of personal choice when actually there is a need for profound social and economic reform. We are left powerless.

Alexander Herzen, speaking a century ago to a group of Russian anarchists working to topple the czar, reminded his followers that they were not there to rescue the system.

“We think we are the doctors,” Herzen said. “We are the disease.”
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 06:15 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Ionus wrote:


Quote:
It is 90 % certain that global warming is man-made.


It is NOT 90% certain, SOME believe it is 90% PROBABLE. It damages your argument if you use emotions to colour facts. It makes you seem afraid of the facts. Or worse, incapable of understanding the argument.


The statement is based on credible scientific findings of fact, not the right-wing contrarian nonsense that pervades this bulletin board.





I would be embarrassed to have your limited understanding. I will explain it again, please read carefully this time...

If something is certain, it cant have any percentage chance of being apart from 100%. If it is 90% possible then it is not certain. Not everyone believes your figure of 90%.

As I said before, and read carefully because I am sick of repeating and explaining to people who have been educated beyond their intelligence, SOME believe it is 90% PROBABLE. That is the only statement you can make that is accurate, unless of course you dont mind inaccurate statements in the service of science. If you wish to have God-like powers and state certainties find a forum where there are more stupid people to convince. 60% of people know that.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 06:21 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
The warming trend over the past 10 years has far exceeded any other 10-year period. It is the trend that counts, not temperatures over a single year.


At least we agree on something. It is the climatic trend that counts, not the weather. To eliminate normal fluctuations, a trend of at least 100,000 years is desirable. 10 years may be a long time for Aunt Mable's arthritis, but it has nothing to do with serious science on the climate.

What 10 trends did you compare it with ?
What was the 10 trend in 1812 ?
What was the 10 trend in 81,560 BCE ?

10 years is meaningless. Obviously you have an emotional opinion not based on science.
0 Replies
 
 

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