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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 02:32 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Yes, 2009 is on pace to be the 9th warmest year in the last 26.
But that means the long term trend shows cooling according to ican.

How come 2009 is only going to be the 9th warmest year? Current CO2 atmospheric density is the highest it's been in the last 26 years!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
CAD Trend 1958-2008
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 02:35 pm
@ican711nm,
Maybe you should include the sun cycle graph as well ican.

This is another example of your failing to include evidence that will show your argument to be lacking.

2009 will be one of the lowest for sun spots and yet it will not be the lowest in temperature. Why is that do you think? Does it prove that the sun doesn't affect temperature? Or does it show that something else besides the sun is working on temperatures? When you can answer those questions, get back to me.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 03:45 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
2009 will be one of the lowest for sun spots and yet it will not be the lowest in temperature. Why is that do you think? Does it prove that the sun doesn't affect temperature? Or does it show that something else besides the sun is working on temperatures? When you can answer those questions, get back to me.

Takes time for the earth to cool its fullest, when the sunspots persistently decrease, and takes time for the earth to warm its fullest, when the sunspots persistently increase.

By the way, 2009 will be one of the many lowest for sun spots. In the sun's typical sunspot cycle the number of sunspots increase and decrease.

Do you continue to allege that the increasing density of CO2 in the atmosphere is the primary cause, and not a minor cause, of earth warming. If so, you are obviously wrong! Clearly, the primary cause has been the previous increasing trend in solar irradiation.

http://www.biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_English.jpg
http://www.biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_English.jpg
Solar Irradiance 1611 t0 2001

http://biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_is_Actually_Increasing.html
(The trend up to 2000 has been increasing, but the trend since 2000 has been decreasing)

As you already should know, the trend in solar irradiation since 2000 has been decreasing, while during this same period the trend in CO2 atmospheric density has been increasing, and the trend in average annual global temperature has been decreasing.

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2008

parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 05:12 pm
@ican711nm,
It's interesting how you ignored the lack of increase in solar energy from 1951 to 2009 compared to the obvious increase in temperature in that same time period. Can you explain why the temperature has increased in spite of the lack of an increase in solar radiation? Are you really arguing that the earth's temperature lags the sun's output by 50 years?
ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 06:46 pm
@parados,
There was an increasing trend in CO2 atmospheric density from 1951 to the present.

There was an increasing trend in solar irradiation from 1951 to about 2001, and decreasing trend thereafter.

There was an increasing trend in average annual global temperature from 1951 to about 2001, and a decreasing trend thereafter.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 08:48 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
http://biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_is_Actually_Increasing.html
(The trend up to 2000 has been increasing, but the trend since 2000 has been decreasing)

Couldn't you at least try to be honest about the numbers?

The trend was NOT increasing from 1985-2000. If you look at the numbers you will clearly see the 11 year solar cycle. There was a high in 1989 and then again in 2000. The next high should be in 2011 or 12 based on the 11 year cycle.

There is a clear high followed by several years of falling irradiation and then a 2-3 years of an increase.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Jul, 2009 06:22 pm
I don't know how to combat this great shell game, Ponsi scheme, or flim flam the liberal governments are attempting to foist upon the world, but it is getting really serious.

If I heard it right, the latest in the grand hoax is that if the nations will spend 2% of their GDP to fight global warming, there is a 90% chance that we can keep global temperatures from rising more than 2 Celcius between now and 2001. President Obama is signing onto this brilliant scheme.

This is almost as brilliant as President Obama claiming to have saved thousands of jobs even as we're losing up to a half million jobs every month. With numbers like that, how do you prove you've saved jobs that would otherwise have been lost?

If the temperature doesn't rise more than 2 Celcius in the next 90 years, how do they prove that it was their efforts that accomplished that feat?

Meanwhile they will have confiscated 2% (and probably a lot more) of the GDP and will have taken away freedoms, options, rights, and opportunities from the people all in the name of the great AGW. (And anybody who thinks all that money will actually be spent to combat global warming, I still have a nice assortment of bridges to offer.)

The gods must surely be laughing.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Jul, 2009 07:08 pm
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
285
Global warming author and engineer Ray Evans, one of the founders of the Australian Lavoisier Group, published "Nine Facts About Climate Change" in February 2007. "Environmentalism has largely superseded Christianity as the religion of the upper classes in Europe and to a lesser extent in the United States," Evans writes in his publication. "It is a form of religious belief which fosters a sense of moral superiority in the believer, but which places no importance on telling the truth," he says. "The science from the anthropology point of view has collapsed. The carbon-dioxide link is increasingly recognised as irrelevant," Evans wrote. "CO2 only has a limited greenhouse effect in the atmosphere," he argues. "A ‘saturation effect' makes the carbon dioxide reduction road to salvation a ‘completely futile and irrational exercise in faith''' he says. (LINK) On March 26, 2007, Evan further explained his views. "What is of very great importance to us now is to look for explanations as to why institutions such as the CSIRO so easily and carelessly abandoned reason, and decided to go with the faith alone crowd,'' he said. "We have quite a way to go before reason can overcome hysteria in this debate," he added. (LINK)

parados
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 06:56 am
@ican711nm,
Over 1100 scientists and their letter to Congress stating..

Quote:
1) Anthropogenic climate change, driven by emissions of greenhouse gases, is already underway and likely responsible for most of the observed warming over the last 50 years"warming that has produced the highest temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere during at least the past 1000 years;


http://www.gcrio.org/OnLnDoc/pdf/THE_STATE_OF_CLIMATE_SCIENCE.pdf

So.. 400 isn't a minority compared to 1100?
Your math is about as good as your science ican.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 03:54 pm
@parados,
The letter, whose link you posted, which you allege was signed by 1100 scientists, "The State of Climate Science, October 2003, A Letter From U.S. Scientists," was sent to Senators Frist and Daschle on October 1, 2003.

What evidence do you have those scientists who signed the 10/01/03 letter have not changed their minds since signing that letter--especially after they have read the testimony to the Senate on 12/20/2007 of over 400 scientists,
and the testimiony update "Released: December 11, 2008?"
Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb
U.S. Senate Report: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007
December 20, 2007

Posted By Marc Morano - [email protected] - 9:47 AM ET

Update: U. S. Senate Minority Report: More Than 650 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims - Scientists Continue to Debunk “Consensus” in 2008 - Released: December 11, 2008


Quote:
Link to Updated 2008 Full 231 Page PDF Report
...The new report issued by the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee’s office of the GOP Ranking Member details the views of the scientists, the overwhelming majority of whom spoke out in 2007
....

U.S. Senate Report: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007

Senate Report Debunks "Consensus"



Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
286
Meteorologist Rob Roseman of Colorado, who earned a Masters degree in Meteorology, expressed man-made global warming skepticism in 2007. "I don't think [global warming] is man-made. I could give you, and will give you, just a couple of examples of -- by way of questions -- that will make people question why they think it's man-made. For some reason we as humans have a tendency to want to believe things that are popular in the media rather than just, say, listen to all of the scientists. Number one, it is not settled science -- I will tell you that; absolutely not settled science," Roseman said on April 23, 2007 on the Caplis & Silverman Show. "Colorado was covered by thousands of feet of ice at some point. How did that melt unless there were some little guys driving around in cars that we didn't know about?" Rosemand asked. "500 years ago, the Earth was about 5 degrees warmer than it is now -- especially in North America and Northern Europe. Guess what? Some of the best climate, the best crop-growing weather and everything else, and the seas weren't 3 feet higher than they are today," he added.


parados
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 03:59 pm
@ican711nm,
What evidence do you have that the 400 on your list are all skeptics? In fact many of them didn't sign anything. There statements were taken and used, sometimes out of context. 1100 signed my letter. Please provide any evidence you have that one has changed their mind.

At least one on your list has declared he is NOT a skeptic even though he is still on the list.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 07:19 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
What evidence do you have that the 400 on your list are all skeptics?

What evidence do you have that not all the 400 on my list are skeptics?

By the way, they were actually far more than 400 skeptics in December 2007. In December 2008, that number grew to more than 650. You will see in time, when I complete posting all their statements on my December 2007 list, that that number is actually far more than 400.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
287
Economist Dr. Robert Higgs, a Senior Fellow for the Independent Institute and who has been a visiting scholar at Oxford University, Stanford University, and a fellow for the National Science Foundation, rejected the notion of a "consensus" on man-made global warming and dismissed the UN IPCC's scientific credentials. "The United Nations (and its committees and the bureaus it oversees) is no more a scientific organization than the U.S. Congress (and its committees and the bureaus it oversees). When decisions and pronouncements come forth from these political organizations, it makes sense to treat them as essentially political in origin and purpose," Higgs wrote on May 7, 2007. "I have thirty-nine years of professional experience -- twenty-six as a university professor, including fifteen at a major research university, and then thirteen as a researcher, writer, and editor -- in close contact with scientists of various sorts, including some in the biological and physical sciences and many in the social sciences and demography. I have served as a peer reviewer for more than thirty professional journals and as a reviewer of research proposals for the National Science Foundation, the National Institutes of Health," Higgs wrote. He then explained how the peer-review process has many flaws. "Personal vendettas, ideological conflicts, professional jealousies, methodological disagreements, sheer self-promotion, and a great deal of plain incompetence and irresponsibility are no strangers to the scientific world; indeed, that world is rife with these all-too-human attributes. In no event can peer review ensure that research is correct in its procedures or its conclusions. The history of every science is a chronicle of one mistake after another," Higgs wrote. (LINK)



parados
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 08:19 pm
@ican711nm,
Here is one on the list that isn't a skeptic.
Luc Debontridder which includes some of Inhofe's misrepresentations.

http://jules-klimaat.blogspot.com/2008/12/inhofes-650-list-misrepresents-belgian.html

Here are two more with the full quotes that Inhofe took stuff out of context to try to show they were skeptics
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/12/how_many_inhofes_list_compared.php
parados
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Jul, 2009 08:20 pm
@parados,
Now, what evidence do you have that any of the 1100 that signed the letters are now skeptical?

My 1100 vs your 400 or 650.. You still do NOT have a majority. I haven't even pulled out the letter signed by over 2000 to compare with your measly number that were quote mined in spite of their actual positions.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 12:43 am
More scientists now belive that Gobal Warming is bogus than those that demand we accept the end of the world is upon us.

Leftist manipulation of scientific fact is certainly no more favorable than the alleged manipulation of the right.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 12:52 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

More scientists now belive that Gobal Warming is bogus than those that demand we accept the end of the world is upon us.

Leftist manipulation of scientific fact is certainly no more favorable than the alleged manipulation of the right.



I haven't read that any scientist demanded that we accept the end of the world. Nor could I find such opinion by scientists (online).

So I think that your statement certainly is true.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 06:51 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I'm not sure that too many real scientists believe either of those extremes.

Inhofe's list isn't what I would call scientists that understand climate. I wouldn't trust that list any more than I would trust a geologist to do brain surgery just because he has a Doctorate.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 10:42 am
@parados,
The so-called "global warming" started long before we plastered our planet with carbon producing products. This planet has also gone through two ice ages that we know of. Scientists are studying the glaciers in antarctica to study climate change.

We still don't have definitive information to claim man's production of carbon is the sole cause of global warming. However, having said that, it doesn't hurt for us to control the production of carbons, because they are harmful to our environment.

Humans manage to create extremist views on most subjects, and that will not change as long as humans propagate on this planet.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 11:13 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
However, having said that, it doesn't hurt for us to control the production of carbons, because they are harmful to our environment.


And you have definite, undeniable proof of this?

You need to post it, otherwise you arent being honest.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 10 Jul, 2009 11:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
We still don't have definitive information to claim man's production of carbon is the sole cause of global warming.

I don't know of any credible scientist that makes that claim.

Arguing the extremes doesn't mean that man isn't contributing. This isn't a case of man causing all or nothing.
 

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