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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Apr, 2009 06:06 pm
@MontereyJack,
AAGT = Average Annual Global Temperature in either degrees Kelvin or degrees Celsius.
AANHGT = Average Annual Northern Hemisphere Global Temperature in either degrees Kelvin or degrees Celsius.
AASHGT = Average Annual Sorthern Hemisphere Global Temperature in either degrees Kelvin or degrees Celsius.

A-AAGT = Amnomaly of AAGT relative to a multiyear average in either degrees Kelvin or degrees Celsius; currently the multiyear = 1901 to 2001.
CAD = CO2 Atmospheric Density in PPM
SI = Solar Irradiance in Watts per Square Meter.

NASA is wrong. There is a correlation between SI and ENSO. With zero SI variation there would be no ENSO variations.

MONTEREYJACK: That's because the maximum change in temp from max to min of SI is so small that the signal is swamped by the amount of change in the average temp that WEATHER causes.

ICAN: That's false!

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report

254
CBS Chicago affiliate Chief Meteorologist Steve Baskerville expressed skepticism that there is a "consensus" about mankind's role in global warming. "What is the truth about global warming? As you have seen in this program, it depends on who you talk to. As decision makers ponder our future as it relates to climate change, we need to keep asking questions. Because an informed public should have a role in determining the ultimate truth about global warming," the Emmy Award winning Baskerville concluded in an April 28, 2007 TV special he hosted called "The Truth about Global Warming." Baskerville's climate TV special clearly portrayed the science as not settled on man's role in climate change as he featured interviews with prominent skeptics, including MIT climate scientist Richard Lindzen and environmental economist Dennis Avery, co-author of the 2006 book Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years. (LINK)

255
Atmospheric scientist and hurricane expert Dr. Neil Frank, former director of the National Hurricane Center, dismissed fears of catastrophic man-made global warming. "It's a hoax," Frank told the Washington Post on May 28, 2006 regarding doomsday climate scenarios. According to the article, "[Frank] says cutting carbon emissions would wind up hurting poor people. I ask if he thinks more CO2 in the air would be a good thing. ‘Exactly! Maybe we're living in a carbon dioxide-starved world. We don't know.'" Frank also lamented that the UN's IPCC does not reach out to many skeptics of global warming like himself. Frank has published a variety of professional papers on tropical meteorology and served the chairman of the International Hurricane Committee. (LINK)

256
Statistician Dr. Bjorn Lomborg, author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist" and professor at the Copenhagen Business School, questioned former Vice President Al Gore's scientific presentations. "But if we are to embark on the costliest political project ever, maybe we should make sure it rests on solid ground. It should be based on the best facts, not just the convenient ones," Lomborg co-wrote in a January 21, 2007 Wall Street Journal op-ed titled "Will Al Gore Melt?" Lomborg, who proclaimed he "has provided one of the clearest counterpoints to Mr. Gore's tune," accused Gore of "chicken[ing]" out of a debate. "But if we are to follow Mr. Gore's suggestions of radically changing our way of life, the costs are not trivial," Lomborg wrote. "In the year 2100, Mr. Gore will have left the average person 30% poorer, and thus less able to handle many of the problems we will face, climate change or no climate change. Clearly we need to ask hard questions. Is Mr. Gore's world a worthwhile sacrifice? But it seems that critical questions are out of the question," he continued. "It would have been great to ask [Gore] why he only talks about a sea-level rise of 20 feet. In his movie he shows scary sequences of 20-feet flooding Florida, San Francisco, New York, Holland, Calcutta, Beijing and Shanghai. But were realistic levels not dramatic enough? The U.N. climate panel expects only a foot of sea-level rise over this century. Moreover, sea levels actually climbed that much over the past 150 years. Does Mr. Gore find it balanced to exaggerate the best scientific knowledge available by a factor of 20?" Lomborg wrote. "[Gore] considers Antarctica the canary in the mine, but again doesn't tell the full story. He presents pictures from the 2% of Antarctica that is dramatically warming and ignores the 98% that has largely cooled over the past 35 years. The U.N. panel estimates that Antarctica will actually increase its snow mass this century. Similarly, Mr. Gore points to shrinking sea ice in the Northern Hemisphere, but don't mention that sea ice in the Southern Hemisphere is increasing. Shouldn't we hear those facts?" Lomborg added. (LINK) Lomborg organized some of the world's top Nobel Laureates to form the 2004 Copenhagen Consensus which ranked the world's most pressing problems. The Copenhagen Consensus placed global warming at the bottom of the list in terms of our planet's priorities, behind combating disease, stopping malaria, securing clean water, and building infrastructure to help lift the developing nations out of poverty. (LINK)

0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 12:34 am
ican, do you want to tell us why you think ENSO is dependent on SI when no one else has found such a relationship--that what is apparent indeed is that the periodicity of el Nino and la Nina clearly occur without any relationship to where in the solar cycle we are, which is in fact why NASA says they have more of an effect on annual variation in global temp, because the changes in annual temp correlate with elNino/laNina but not with SI.

And yes, indeed, NASA is right and you are wrong. Temp changes due to SI cycle variation are in fact no more than 0.1 degree C, less than the variation due to weather alone. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080512120523.htm
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 11:43 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
ican, do you want to tell us why you think ENSO is dependent on SI when no one else has found such a relationship--that what is apparent indeed is that the periodicity of el Nino and la Nina clearly occur without any relationship to where in the solar cycle we are, which is in fact why NASA says they have more of an effect on annual variation in global temp, because the changes in annual temp correlate with elNino/laNina but not with SI.

And yes, indeed, NASA is right and you are wrong. Temp changes due to SI cycle variation are in fact no more than 0.1 degree C, less than the variation due to weather alone. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080512120523.htm

NASA is not a source of experts on the causes of climate change. They are experts on space travel. They cannot predict the weather any more accurately than can the US Weather Bureau, or the IPCC.

It is obvious from the data I have posted--not my calculations--that SI is the major cause of AAGT (i.e., Annual Average Global Temperature) changes, and CAD (i.e., CO2 Atmospheric Density is a minor cause of AAGT changes.

Here again is the data, not my calculations, that is my evidence, from the sources listed, that supports my allegations in the previous paragraph.

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2008

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
CO2 Trend 1958-2008

http://www.biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_English.jpg
http://www.biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_English.jpg
Solar Irradiance 1611 t0 2001

ftp://ftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/ccg/co2/trends/co2_mm_mlo.txt
http://biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_is_Actually_Increasing.html
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2007/ann/global.html
YEAR… CAD... SI... A-AAGT... AAGT
Up only Up and Down Up and Down Up and Down
1987 349.90 1365.79 0.179 287.239
1988 352.16 1366.09 0.180 287.240
1989 353.56 1366.66 0.103 287.163
1990 355.15 1366.56 0.254 287.314
1991 355.91 1366.45 0.212 287.272
1992 356.27 1366.31 0.061 287.121
1993 357.59 1366.04 0.105 287.165
1994 359.65 1365.81 0.171 287.231
1995 361.29 1365.71 0.275 287.335
1996 362.78 1365.62 0.137 287.197
1997 364.89 1365.62 0.351 287.411
1998 367.61 1365.75 0.546 287.606
1999 368.59 1366.11 0.296 287.356
2000 370.33 1366.67 0.270 287.330
2001 371.83 1366.40 0.409 287.469
2002 374.45 1366.37 0.464 287.524
2003 376.71 1366.07 0.473 287.533
2004 378.31 1365.91 0.447 287.507
2005 380.87 1365.81 0.482 287.542
2006 382.64 1365.72 0.422 287.482
2007 384.64 1365.66 0.405 287.465
2008 386.33 1365.60 0.324 287.384
CAGT = CENTURY AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE,1901-2000, in °K = 287.06°K
AAGT= ANNUAL AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE in °K
A-AAGT = ANOMALIES of AAGT = AAGT - CAGT in °K
SI = SOLAR IRRADIANCE in W/M^2
… Note that SI for 2008 was projected from SI in 2005, and this graph:
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Solar_Cycle_Variations_png
CAD = CO2 ATMOSPHERIC DENSITY in PPM


It is a fact that during the specific 90 year period,
1908 to 1998, CAD increased, SI increased, A-AAGT
increased, and AAGT increased. It is also a fact that
during the specific 11 year period, 1998 to 2008,
CAD increased, SI decreased, A-AAGT decreased, and
AAGT decreased. Because of these facts, SI increases
and decreases are likely to be the major causes of
A-AAGT and AAGT increases and decreases,
and CAD increases are likely to be minor, if not
negligible, causes of increases of A-AAGT and AAGT.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report

257
Polar bear expert Dennis Compayre, formerly of the conservation group Polar Bears International, has studied the bears for almost 30 years in their natural habitat and is working on a new UK documentary about the bears. Compayre disputed fears of a potential global warming threat to polar bears. A December 7, 2007 article in the UK Daily Mail reported, "Dennis Compayre raises bushy grey eyebrows as he listens to the environmentalists predict the polar bear's demise. ‘They (environmentalists) say the numbers are down from 1,200 to around 900, but I think I know as much about polar bears as anyone, and I tell you there are as many bears here now as there were when I was a kid.'" According to the article, Compayre, who was born and raised in the Arctic town, "is among those who eye the new ‘experts' in town with deep suspicion. Compayre added, ‘Churchill [in Northern Canada] is full of these scientists going on about vanishing bears and thinner bears. They come here preaching doom, but I question whether some of them really have the bears' best interests at heart. The bear industry in Churchill is big bucks, and what better way to keep people coming than to tell them they'd better hurry to see the disappearing bears.'" The article also noted, "To some Churchill residents, who base their opinions on personal experience rather than fancy charts and computer models, [the polar bear's demise] is so much nonsense put about by scaremongers for their own dubious ends." (LINK

258
David Dilley, founder of Global Weather Oscillations, Inc., rejects the idea of man-made global warming. Dilley's research found that the current global warming episode is a "Natural Recurring Cycle." "Dilley demonstrated that the current global warming episode is a ‘Natural Recurring Cycle,' and that this current cycle will begin to diminish as early as 2015, and no later than 2040," according to an April 6, 2007 press release. "Dilley's 15-years of ongoing climate research have uncovered a very powerful external forcing mechanism that causes shifts in regional weather cycles, and the world's climate. This forcing mechanism is called the ‘Primary Forcing Trigger Mechanism,' or PFM. The PFM is a cyclical forcing mechanism that can be forecast years in advance, or even traced back through the earth's climate history. The major influence of the PFM on the earth's climate is that it causes the world's dominating regional high-pressure systems to shift position, or become displaced from their normal seasonal position," noted the press release on the website of Global Weather Oscillations. "Dilley states that the current global warming is without a doubt the result of a known external "natural" forcing cycle. According to Dilley, most government officials, climatologists and meteorologists are looking only at the increase in temperatures and carbon dioxide (CO2) levels over the past 50 to 100 years. But when you take into account nearly 40 other global warming episodes over the past 5 thousand years, it becomes very apparent that CO2 levels cannot be the forcing mechanism that has caused global warming," the press release stated. (LINK)


If you have evidence as specific as the above evidence I posted, and which you think refutes the evidence I posted, then post it!



0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 12:06 pm
GIS world temps through March not all that definitive, certainly not up, as March average of 0.47 C above average is the coolest March, worldwide, since about the year, 2000, 9 years ago.

http://www.junkscience.com/MSU_Temps/MSUvsGISTEMP.png
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  0  
Reply Wed 15 Apr, 2009 12:31 pm
Yep, because as NOAA says, la Nina seems to be reactivating, and that's a temporary, weather-not-climate-related event, and it passes. It's interesting to note from your graph, okie, that 2001 was hotter than 1998 and 2006 was hotter than 2001. Guess the nay-sayers who maintain that temps haven't gone up since 1998 or 2001 (their story keeps changing) should rethink.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:06 am
U.S. declares warming gases are health threat
Obama administration move is aimed at prodding lawmakers to regulate

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30264214/

Look for cap-and-trade to begin sooner rather than later.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:09 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Oh no, stupid stupid stupid. Watch energy bills rise. Great economy stimulation. I am beginning to think Obama wants to run the economy into the ground, on purpose.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 10:11 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Oh no, stupid stupid stupid. Watch energy bills rise. Great economy stimulation. I am beginning to think Obama wants to run the economy into the ground, on purpose.


They will rise some at first, and then fall as companies innovate and the Free Market does its job. And we will have a cleaner country and world for it. Not a bad trade-off.

Cycloptichorn
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:03 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

I am beginning to think Obama wants to run the economy into the ground, on purpose.


Bingo!

We have a winner!
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:07 am
@Cycloptichorn,
So you think the free market can do it better then the govt can?
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:19 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

So you think the free market can do it better then the govt can?


Can do what better?

Cycloptichorn
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:20 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I was repsonding to this post...Post: # 3,627,675
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:26 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

I was repsonding to this post...Post: # 3,627,675


Yes, I know. But I don't understand your question. The competitive market that companies operate in has a different function than Government does, so I'm not sure why you would say 'do it better.'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 11:38 am
CAD (i.e., CO2 Atmospheric Density) increases are not causing AAGT (i.e., Average Annual Global Temperature) increases. Nor are CAD increases causing the curent AAGT decreases.

SI (i.e., Solar Irradiation) increases from 1900 to the year 2000 caused AAGT increases 1900 to 2000. SI (i.e., Solar Irradiation) decreases from 2001 to the present are causing AAGT decreases 2001 to the present.

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2008

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
CO2 Trend 1958-2008

http://www.biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_English.jpg
http://www.biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_English.jpg
Solar Irradiance 1611 t0 2001
.......CAD........SI...A-AAGT..AAGT
2001 371.83 1366.40 0.409 287.469
2002 374.45 1366.37 0.464 287.524
2003 376.71 1366.07 0.473 287.533
2004 378.31 1365.91 0.447 287.507
2005 380.87 1365.81 0.482 287.542
2006 382.64 1365.72 0.422 287.482
2007 384.64 1365.66 0.405 287.465
2008 386.33 1365.60 0.324 287.384

CAGT = CENTURY AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE,1901-2000, in °K = 287.06°K
AAGT= ANNUAL AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE in °K
A-AAGT = ANOMALIES of AAGT = AAGT - CAGT in °K
AAGT = A-AAGT + CAGT in °K
SI = SOLAR IRRADIANCE in W/M^2
CAD = CO2 ATMOSPHERIC DENSITY in PPM


0 Replies
 
Deckland
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 01:19 pm
Revealed: Antarctic ice growing, not shrinking

ICE is expanding in much of Antarctica, contrary to the widespread public belief that global warming is melting the continental ice cap.
Dr Allison said there was not any evidence of significant change in the mass of ice shelves in east Antarctica nor any indication that its ice cap was melting. "The only significant calvings in Antarctica have been in the west," he said. And he cautioned that calvings of the magnitude seen recently in west Antarctica might not be unusual.
Australian Antarctic Division glaciology program head Ian Allison said sea ice losses in west Antarctica over the past 30 years had been more than offset by increases in the Ross Sea region, just one sector of east Antarctica.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25349683-601,00.html
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Apr, 2009 05:23 pm
@Deckland,
in a report in january 2008 dr. allison said the following :

Quote:
But for Hobart glaciologist Ian Allison - with the Australian Antarctic Division and the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Co-operative Research Centre - the new findings settle the matter.

"This work suggests that the ice flow is accelerating," Dr Allison said.

"It's worrying because ... the changes are happening due to processes we don't understand."

Dr Allison said the findings confirmed previous work, much by Dr Rignot and another UCI scientist Isabella Velicogna.


source :
http://lightblueline.org/antarcticas-ice-melting-faster

we might want to wait for the next report ... ...
hbg
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 08:00 am
@hamburger,
Of course that article, written more than a year ago, was reviewing data from years 2006 and earlier. We are now three years down the pike and it appears that what appears to have been a brief anomaly was not any indicator of an urgent problem.

Speaking purely as a layperson and with no pretense of any scientific expertise, it seems to me that if melt in Anarctica does not occur from time to time, the ice mass would continue to grow and grow and grow until it took over everything.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 08:09 am
Meanwhile, I think Okie referenced and excerpted this article over the the Conservatism thread, but it deserves a spot here too. It illustrates the absurdity involved in some of our energy policies designed to combat global warming and how such policies can actually backfire:

Quote:
OPINION: POTOMAC WATCH
APRIL 17, 2009
Alternative Fuel Folly
By KIMBERLEY A. STRASSEL

Every so often Washington throws out a controversy that brilliantly illustrates everything wrong with Washington. Consider the brewing outrage over "black liquor."

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AJ358_pw0417_DV_20090416185523.jpg

Barbara KelleyThis is the tale of how a supposedly innocuous federal subsidy to encourage "alternative energy" has, in a few short years, ballooned into a huge taxpayer liability and a potential trade dispute, even as it has distorted markets and led to greater fossil-fuel use. Think of it as a harbinger of the unintended consequences that will accompany the Obama energy revolution.

Back in 2005, Congress passed a highway bill. In its wisdom, it created a subsidy that gave some entities a 50-cents-a-gallon tax credit for blending "alternative" fuels with traditional fossil fuels. The law restricted which businesses could apply and limited the credit to use of fuel in motor vehicles.

Not long after, some members of Congress got to wondering if they couldn't tweak this credit in a way that would benefit specific home-state industries. In 2007, Congress expanded the types of alternative fuels that counted for the credit, while also allowing "non-mobile" entities to apply. This meant that Alaskan fish-processing facilities, for instance, which run their boilers off fish oil, might now also claim the credit.

What Congress apparently didn't consider was every other industry that might qualify. Turns out the paper industry has long used something called the "kraft" process to make paper. One byproduct is a sludge called "black liquor," which the industry has used for decades to fuel its plants. Black liquor is cost-effective, makes plants nearly self-sufficient, and, most importantly (at least for this story), definitely falls under Congress's definition of an "alternative fuel."

All of which has allowed the paper industry to start collecting giant federal payments for doing nothing more than what it has done for decades. And in fairness, why not? If Congress is going to lard up the tax code with thousands of complex provisions designed to "encourage" behavior, it shouldn't be surprised when those already practicing said behavior line up for their reward, too.

In March, International Paper announced it had received $71 million from the feds for a one-month period last fall. The company is on track to claim as much as $1 billion in 2009. Verso took in nearly $30 million from the operation of just one mill in one quarter of last year. Other giants are gearing up to realize their own windfalls. Wall Street has gone wild, pushing paper-company stocks up dramatically in recent weeks.

Happy as industry is to have this new federal lifeline in the middle of a recession, it is the only one smiling. Foreign competitors are screaming that the subsidy is unfairly propping up the U.S. industry in tough times. They claim the U.S. industry is ramping up production simply to realize more tax money. Canadian forestry firms are already demanding their government file a trade complaint.

In order to qualify for the credit, alternative fuel must be mixed with a taxable one. (The government might want to encourage alternative fuels, but not to the extent that it loses its gas-tax revenue.) This means that to qualify, the paper industry must mix some diesel with its black liquor. This has sent environmentalists around the bend. They have accused the industry of burning fossil fuels that it didn't used to burn, simply to get the tax dollars. (The industry has not been clear on whether it is, in fact, using more diesel.)

And then there's Congress, which is suddenly looking at billions more in red ink than expected. In 2007 it estimated a 15-month extension of the credit would cost taxpayers $333 million. It has since revised those numbers to take into account black liquor and is now figuring a one-year cost of more than $3 billion. Wall Street analysts are talking $6 billion. Senate Finance Committee bosses Max Baucus and Charles Grassley are reportedly aware of the issue, none too happy, and they are working to bar the paper industry from receiving the credit.

But this, in turn, has tossed up uncomfortable questions. The paper industry argues that if the government is going to be in the business of rewarding good behavior, it ought to do it equally. Is green policy only to be aimed at dirty or economically unviable actors? Is black liquor any less useful than ethanol or biodiesel, and if so why? If not, shouldn't Washington encourage its use? Isn't every green subsidy in fact the basis for a trade dispute?

These are questions Congress has no interest in confronting, since it would expose the muddle that is its entire green-energy program.


All of this is highly amusing, if not surprising. Every government attempt to manage energy markets has resulted in similar disarray. Look at the havoc that came from the energy price controls, regulations and subsidies of the 1970s. Or look, more recently, at the ethanol fiasco, and the accompanying soaring food costs. Energy powers the economy. Mess with energy markets, and mess with everything else. When will Washington learn?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993344387627879.html
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 10:12 am


Report: Antarctic Ice Growing, Not Shrinking
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 10:19 am
@Deckland,
By the way Deckland, welcome to the thread. Be sure the battery in your bullshit detector is fully charged and wade on in. Lively debate, mostly civil here, and some interesting stuff to talk about.
 

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