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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:45 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I don't recall ever seeing anything of an environmental nature published in New Science that did not take the pro-anthropogenic global warming position. ...


The thesis is published in "Science" [ Science (DOI: 10.1126/science.1166349)] not "New Science" (the latter just gives the online report).

If you had looked at the link, you could have found that yourself.

I suppose that Nora Shultz is a journalist or may be someone else, who writes for New Science.

Valerie Trouet is a dendo scientist, specialised in tree physiology.


Your first link is from 31 December 2008.
Trouet's thesis wasn't not only published at that time, it wasn't even sent to Science. Besides that - what has " 4000-Year δ18O Histories of New Zealand's North and South Islands" to do with her work???

Same with your second link, from 2004.

None of the above mentions remotely "Europe" nor "Medieval Ages".

But what I find as most perplexing is that you really think papers from 2004 and 2008 about a totally different topic could rebut a new paper and theory.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 02:55 pm
Andrew Sullivan describes himself as a libertarian conservative who has argued that the Republican Party has abandoned true conservative principles.

In the Sunday Times he writes about his attitude towards climate change:

Quote:
It’s little things that will fight climate change

Vast regulation would cost us dear; far better to try simple petrol and carbon taxes


I’ve been a green conservative for as long as I can recall. Perhaps my first ecological feelings welled up as a boy when I saw the copses and fields of my rural Sussex neighbourhood torn up for housing developments. The sense of dislocation I felt at seeing familiar places altered, of trees uprooted, ponds drained and woodlands paved was, I realised later, a conservative impulse.

I liked the world as it was. It was a home of sorts and I was happy in it. And when it was changed by the forces of market capi-talism, forces that seemed utterly indifferent to the human impact of their upheaval, the cultural contradictions of conservatism became much clearer to me.

That was a long time ago and I can appreciate now the parochialism and narrowness of my childhood perspective. But the contradiction - or, perhaps, more accurately the tension - between conservatism and environmentalism endures. You can rebrand the Tory party all you want, but green growth is not an easy concept. In practice, it’s hard and costly and, in a recession, much easier said than done.

In America, there are, alas, some residual and powerful forces on the right that still want to insist climate change is not real. I cannot see how an empirical and sceptical review of the data can lead one to the conclusion that warming is a hallucination. And the good news is that, increasingly, the old conservative debate about whether warming is occurring is being replaced by a much more interesting one about what to do if it is.

Should we bear the heavy economic and social costs of trying to mitigate it in the teeth of a global depression? Or should we find creative ways to adjust to and live with it and hope that the faster growth of a less green world might be the long-term key to developing the new energy resources and technologies to restrain it?

To be perfectly honest, I’m unsure. But a lack of certainty does not seem to me to be a crippling disadvantage in this debate. For one thing, the scientists are themselves unsure precisely how much warming will occur and what its potential effects could be. If you read the very careful and much hedged reports by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), you find that good scientists do not proclaim total disaster with the zeal of Al Gore. They forecast a range of possibilities, with another range of effects, and they freely admit the difficulty of judging which is the likeliest.

Economists, at least the good ones, in turn exercise the same sort of caution. The “cap-and-trade” emissions regulation mantra, which is taken for granted by David Cameron and Barack Obama, can be examined in terms of classic economic costs and benefits. You can do your best to predict how costly it would be to try to prevent climate change by a mandatory capping of carbon emissions and compare this with how costly it would be to do nothing about it - and a whole range of possibilities in between. This is not as exciting or as entertaining as envisioning Manhattan 6ft under water but, in the real world, it’s where adults start to plan the future.

There’s a robust case to be made, if you take this approach, that the economic and social costs of cap-and-trade outweigh the small and rather fragile benefits that restraining climate change would bring. We run the risk of putting a big damper on economic growth (and thereby human well-being), and erecting a complex and often unmanageable regulatory bureaucracy, in order to wring rather minor reductions in global temperature.

Of course, if you believe humans have no right to disrupt the planet’s ecology to this extent and have a moral obligation to leave Earth as we found it, then these arguments are irrelevant.

However, if you see human population growth as it is occurring, and if you accept that billions of Indians and Chinese and Africans will want to improve their lot, and if you think our essential task is to accommodate our own species’ genius and well-being without rendering our planet uninhabitable, you might let your green imagination wander a little. Perhaps a little muddling through might not be so bad. Perhaps new technologies will emerge that would make a massive government attempt to police carbon-emitting industry moot. Perhaps the economic slowdown gives us a breathing space to see if it might happen.

My own tentative view is that, accepting the middle range of options that the IPCC has set out, doing nothing at this point may be the least worst option. And that’s certainly more likely in the US than some may now think. Obama is indeed committed to cap-and-trade in ways that George W Bush never was. However, people forget that Bill Clinton and Al Gore were much more in line with Obama and were stopped from adopting Kyoto by Congress. Congress is still there. And Democrats from the industrial heartland, already reeling from the collapsing auto industry, are in no mood to aggressively land their constituents with another economic burden right now. That’s why, when you look at the congressional schedule, you can see that cap-and-trade is behind healthcare and education in the budgetary process.

The trouble with inaction, of course, is that there is a real risk that warming might unexpectedly accelerate past the middle range of IPCC forecasts. If you look at more recent shifts - and the speed of the Arctic’s disappearance in summer, for starters - the Gore scenario could indeed become likelier. And if that happens, the cost-benefit analysis shifts back in favour of urgent action. Is there a better way to address it?

My own preference is to avoid the bureaucracy of cap-and-trade in favour of a serious carbon and petrol tax that would shift the economic balance towards noncarbon energy. If you gave back the tax revenue through a tax refund, you could avoid depressing growth and help cushion the working poor from higher petrol costs. You need no new bureaucracy to do this " and you’d help drive green decision-making away from top-down government towards more bottom-up human-level calculations.

It’s not as satisfying as a massive government regulatory programme. It tries to counter the worst-case scenarios without assuming them. It hopes that a carbon-hostile tax would prompt a technological breakthrough to solve the problem. And it’s easily reversible if needs be. It’s the kind of green policy that is neither in denial nor in hysteria, and it’s a rough balance between the planet’s needs and humanity’s. Think of it as innovation over regulation - a way to manage the contradictions of conservatism and environmentalism after all.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:01 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
What I find perplexing is that you would dismiss what appear to be two perfectly credible and reasonably recent studies and that appear to rebut Trouet's findings--not intentionally but rather in effect--rather than look at them all and say, yes there is room to go one way or the other on her thesis and it is all grist for the mill. Especially there is room to question the conclusion that New Science tends to suggest by posting such articles.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:02 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Forgot to post the summary from Science (Science 3 April 2009: Vol. 324. no. 5923, pp. 78 - 80; DOI: 10.1126/science.1166349)

Quote:
The Medieval Climate Anomaly (MCA) was the most recent pre-industrial era warm interval of European climate, yet its driving mechanisms remain uncertain. We present here a 947-year-long multidecadal North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) reconstruction and find a persistent positive NAO during the MCA. Supplementary reconstructions based on climate model results and proxy data indicate a clear shift to weaker NAO conditions into the Little Ice Age (LIA). Globally distributed proxy data suggest that this NAO shift is one aspect of a global MCA-LIA climate transition that probably was coupled to prevailing La Niña"like conditions amplified by an intensified Atlantic meridional overturning circulation during the MCA.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Well, you're the specialist here. I'd thought that they dealt with something different.

You certainly must be correct.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I am no specialist and have never claimed to be.

I did NOT attempt to dispute the lady's research or findings.

I DID post information that, at least in my opinion, does provide an alternate point of view to her opinion. New Science has been attempting for some time to dispute the medieval warm period as anything other than an anomally that is irrelevant to the modern warming trend. Had her study not put it in exactly such terms, I am quite sure they would not have posted Shultz's article. These other studies, at least to me, seem to suggest that such warming periods are not not anomalies but are recurring and quite common. If New Science was truly objective, they would be posting articles like that too. They don't.

In my opinion, those who want to make a case one way or the other ignore or try to discredit any evidence that doesn't support their chosen position.

Those who want the truth look at it all.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
So.. why didn't you look at it all Fox..

Your first link takes you to an attempt to use a study to refute the idea that the Medieval warming period was restricted to Europe.

You didn't bother to find the actual study. Instead you took the word of the person that was misusing that study.
The actual study can be found here
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20586854

The interesting thing about the study is what is said about New Zealand climate here
http://www.niwa.cri.nz/ncc/clivar/pastclimate
Quote:
Interannual Variability

In New Zealand and the South Pacific, the El Niño Southern Oscillation (ENSO) is a significant source of seasonal and year-to-year climate variability (Nicholls, 1992). Opposite interannual air temperature from detrended time series occur on either side of the South Pacific Convergence Zone (SPCZ). The Southern Oscillation Index (SOI) explains up to 40% of year-to-year air temperature variations in these areas. When the Southern Oscillation Index (SOI) is positive, mean annual air temperature anomalies are positive in the area south west of the SPCZ (T1 and T3), and negative to the north east of the SPCZ (T2 and T4). (Salinger et al, 1996). Opposite air temperature anomalies occur during the El Niño phase (SOI negative).

Similarly, mean annual precipitation anomalies (Hay et al, 1993) show marked interannual variability, and are also closely associated with the ENSO cycle (Figure 3.4). The SOI also explains over 40% of year-to-year variations in precipitation to the south west and north east of the SPCZ. Near and south west of the SPCZ, above average precipitation occurs when the SOI is positive (La Niña phase), and further to the north east precipitation is below average. Opposite anomalies characterise the El Niño phase.


So, it seems that parts of New Zealand warm during a La Nina.

What did the other study say about why it warmed in Europe?
Quote:
According to Trouet, a Pacific La Niña mode and a positive NAO mode could have reinforced each other in a positive feedback loop " and this could explain the stability of the medieval climate anomaly.


So, it seems the study in New Zealand doesn't dispute the localized warming argument at all. If anything it might even support it.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 03:43 pm
@parados,
And this contradicts my opinion that the articles are citing natural reoccurring events rather than anomalies how?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 04:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
It contradicts it because it points to the Medieval warming period being a localized event because of natural events as opposed to today when the warming is not localized.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 04:11 pm
@parados,
Okay whatever you say. I didn't see it that way.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 04:12 pm
@Foxfyre,
Okay, whatever you want to believe.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 04:14 pm
@parados,
Thank you. You are a scholar and a gentleman. More of your ideology should take their cues from you.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 09:54 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
It contradicts it because it points to the Medieval warming period being a localized event because of natural events as opposed to today when the warming is not localized.

Warmiing is localized today just as it was in the Medieval period. Cooling is likewise localized. Warming and cooling are also localized to hemispheres. See below:
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2008
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 10:00 am
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, over 400 prominent scientists--not a minority of those scientists who have published their views on global warming--from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
250Dr. Kelvin Kemm, formerly a scientist at South Africa's Atomic Energy Corporation who holds degrees in nuclear physics and mathematics, refuted climate alarmism in an op-ed titled "No scientific basis for global warming contention." Kemm was also honored with a 2003 National Science and Technology Forum Award for sustained outstanding contributions to Science and Technology. "The global-warming mania continues with more and more hype and less and less thinking. With religious zeal, people look for issues or events to blame on global warming," Kemm wrote in an April 27, 2007 op-ed in South Africa's Engineering News. "Former US Veep Al Gore is being totally simplistic in his movie by just saying that Mount Kilimanjaro's loss of ice-cap volume is a sign of global warming. Most of Al's movie exhibited the same absence of genuine science, and rather presented itself as part of an election campaign," Kemm explained, while noting that warming temperatures did not cause a ice-cap melt on Kilimanjaro. "It is also a scientific fact that there has been no measurable atmospheric warming in the region of Kilimanjaro. Satellites have been measuring the regional temperature since 1979 in the free troposphere between 1 000-m and 8 000-m altitude and they show no troposphere warming in that area. None. So what is causing the ice cap to melt? The answer appears to be trees, or rather lack of them," Kemm wrote. "...Since the locals have cut down so many trees over the last century, there is much less wet air moving up the mountain than there used to be, so less ice forms at the top," he added.


0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 11:31 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Warmiing is localized today just as it was in the Medieval period. Cooling is likewise localized. Warming and cooling are also localized to hemispheres. See below:

What on earth are you talking about ican? I see warming in both the Northern and Southern Hemisphere at the same time.

One would think even you could compare blue and red areas of the graphs.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 02:35 pm
@parados,
Within the last 10years the southern Hemisphere has been cooling faster than the northern hemisphere. Also, you should have noted that since 1850, warming and cooling periods in each hemisphere were not congruent--sorry about that--were not equal in magnitude.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 04:19 pm
@ican711nm,
Because warming and cooling in the last 100 years have not been equal in magnitude doesn't present much of an argument against my statement. I never said all parts were equal nor did I state that localized warming means it warms MORE than other places which are also warmer. You have built a strawman.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 06:46 pm
@parados,
ican711nm wrote:
Warmiing is localized today just as it was in the Medieval period. Cooling is likewise localized. Warming and cooling are also localized to hemispheres. See below:

parados wrote:
I see warming in both the Northern and Southern Hemisphere at the same time.

One would think even you could compare blue and red areas of the graphs.

n711nm wrote:
Within the last 10 years the southern Hemisphere has been cooling faster than the northern hemisphere. Also, you should have noted that since 1850, warming and cooling periods in each hemisphere were not congruent--sorry about that--were not equal in magnitude.

parados wrote:
Because warming and cooling in the last 100 years have not been equal in magnitude doesn't present much of an argument against my statement. I never said all parts were equal nor did I state that localized warming means it warms MORE than other places which are also warmer. You have built a strawman.


~~ ~ !???! ~ ~~
~~~ (O|O) ~~~
....~~ ( O ) ~~....

0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 09:45 pm
@parados,
Foxfyre wrote:

Further 100% unscientific research but quite interesting:

April 1, 2009 - 5:45 PM MDT

Oklahoma City OK - 70 degrees farenheit - 12% humidity
Houston TX - 69 degrees farenheit - 70% humidity
Dallas TX - 48 degrees farenheit - 26% humidity
Albuquerque NM - 35 degrees farenheit - 60% humidity

Wild huh?


parados wrote:

Yes, it is interesting..

Based on your temperature and humidity we get -

OKC has 1.9 g/kg
Houston has 10.5g/Kg
Dallas has 1.9g/kg
Albuqerque has 2.5g/kg

So, even though the humidity in Dallas is more than double the humidity in OKC, the amount of water vapor is almost exactly the same.

And even though Albuquerque has 60% humidity compared to Houston's 70%, Houston has 4 times the water vapor. Amazing, isn't it? Temperature greatly affects water vapor even if the humidity is the same.


I don't see what you imply as proving, because most of the time Albuquerque is about as hot as Houston is during the summer, so the 35 degrees is not a fair statistic. I looked up the averages for July highs, and interestingly, Houston, Oklahoma City, and Albuquerque have average July highs of 92, 93, and 92. Humidities are respectively 78%, 64%, and 43%, as calculated from an average of morning and afternoon averages, so obviously Albuquerque is the driest, and it would therefore have considerably less water vapor in the atmosphere in that area, even though temperatures may not be radically different.

The entire point that I tried to make about this issue was that the average amount of water vapor, the most important greenhouse gas by far, far more important than CO2, in the atmosphere around the planet has probably varied throughout history, yet the climate modelers have insufficient data to plug into the analysis, they instead "assume" constant humidity or some such thing. I am still not impressed by that.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 06:48 am
@okie,
I guess you don't realize that in Albuquerque if the temperature was 70 degrees the humidity would be about 18% if the water vapor stayed the same.

What I am showing is that the models do account for changes in water vapor when they keep humidity constant.
 

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