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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 05:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
oh? where is the "reams of data?"

I have seen claims by deniers but no actual data.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 05:13 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

But how in the world could a peer review of a study that the scientist had not participated in know whether such tweaking had occurred? All they can do is agree on the methodology used, but have no way of knowing whether the data used is valid or not.

Hmm.. since they agree on the methodology that means ANYONE can do the experiment using that methodology and the data. It's not like anyone uses "secret data."
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 05:25 pm
@parados,
I no longer have those links at my fingertips and you can comb back through the pages as well as I can. If we continue this line of discussion though, I'll look for some of them when I have time. You apparently overlooked the real life illustration I used with my science teacher. He approved my methodology which was just fine. Had I not confessed that I had rigged the data that I used, however, he never would have known. (Suspected perhaps, but could not have known.)

So the huge enormous vast biggest percentage of scientists who have signed off on the IPCC sanctioned studies etc. have never done the research. They have just reveiwed it and agreed that the methodology was okay. They had no way of knowing whether the data used was rigged.

Many scientists who have done their own research and/or computations using real numbers, however, seem to be drawing much different conclusions.

Here is the most recent piece I've seen disputing the IPCC data. Dispute it if you can:

Quote:
The only place where CO2 is causing temperature increase is in the IPCC computer models
Completely inadequate IPCC models produce the ultimate deception about man made global warming
By Dr. Tim Ball
Monday, December 22, 2008

E. R. Beadle said, “Half the work done in the world is to make things appear what they are not.” The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) does this with purpose and great effect. They built the difference between appearance and reality into their process. Unlike procedure used elsewhere, they produce and release a summary report independently and before the actual technical report is completed. This way the summary gets maximum media attention and becomes the public understanding of what the scientists said. Climate science is made to appear what it is not. Indeed, it is not even what is in their Scientific Report.

The pattern of falsifying appearances began early. Although he works at the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR), Stephen Schneider was heavily employed in the work of the IPCC as this biography notes.

Much of Schneider’s time is taken up by what he calls his “pro bono day job” for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). He was a Coordinating Lead Author in Working Group II of the IPCC from 1997 to 2001 and a lead author in Working Group I from 1994 to 1996. Currently, he is a Coordinating Lead Author for the controversial chapter on “Assessing Key Vulnerabilities and the Risks from Climate Change,” in short, defining “dangerous” climate change.” - Pubmedcentral.nih.gov

He continued this work by helping prepare the Summary for Policymakers (SPM) of the Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) released in April 2007.

Schneider, among others, created the appearance that the Summary was representative of the Science Report. However, he provides an early insight into the thinking when speaking about global warming to Discovery magazine (October 1989) he said scientists need, “to get some broader based support, to capture the public’s imagination…that, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up some scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements and make little mention of any doubts we may have…each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective, and being honest.” The last sentence is deeply disturbing--there is no decision required.

The Summary for Policymakers is designed to convince everyone that global warming is due to human production of CO2. In SPM AR4 issued in April 2007 they say, “Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic GHG concentrations.” The term “very likely” is from a table reportedly produced by Schneider and means greater than 90%. Professor Roy Spencer says about probabilities in this context. “Any statements of probability are meaningless and misleading. I think the IPCC made a big mistake. They’re pandering to the public not understanding probabilities. When they say 90 percent, they make it sound like they’ve come up with some kind of objective, independent, quantitative way of estimating probabilities related to this stuff. It isn’t. All it is is a statement of faith.”

So they create an appearance of certainty about a human cause of warming. But what is the reality? The only place where CO2 is causing temperature increase is in the IPCC computer models. In every record of any duration for any time period in the history of the Earth, temperature increase precedes CO2 increase. So an incorrect assumption that a CO2 increase will cause temperature increase is built into the computer models. That is damaging enough, but the computer models themselves are completely inadequate to represent global climate or make any predictions about future climate. But don’t believe me. The IPCC Technical Report (“The Physical Science Basis”) produced by Working Group I and released in November 2007, says so.

Problems begin with the definition of climate change used because it requires they only consider human causes. From the United Nations Environment Program (article 1) of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), “a change of climate which is attributed directly or indirectly to human activity that alters the composition of the global atmosphere and which is in addition to natural climate variability observed over considerable time periods.” But you cannot determine the human portion unless you understand natural climate change. As Professor Roy Spencer said in his testimony before the US Senate EPW Committee, “And given that virtually no research into possible natural explanations for global warming has been performed, it is time for scientific objectivity and integrity to be restored to the field of global warming research.”

Media and public are allowed to believe the IPCC make climate predictions, but they don’t. The First Assessment Report (Climate Change 1992) said, “Scenarios are not predictions of the future and should not be used as such.” While the Special Report on Emissions Scenarios says; “Scenarios are images of the future or alternative futures. They are neither predictions nor forecasts. Climate Change 2001 continues the warnings; “The possibility that any single in emissions path will occur as described in this scenario is highly uncertain.” In the same Report they say, “No judgment is offered in this report as to the preference for any of the scenarios and they are not assigned probabilities of recurrence, neither must they be interpreted as policy recommendations.” This is a reference to the range of scenarios they produce using different future possible economic conditions. Of course, they didn’t build in the recent financial collapse.

Climate Change 2001 substitutes the word projection for prediction. Projection is defined as follows, “A projection is a potential future evolution of a quantity or set of quantities, often computed with the help of a model. Projections are distinguished from predictions in order to emphasise that projections involve assumptions concerning e.g. future socio-economic and technological developments that may or may not be realised and are therefore subject to substantial uncertainty”.

This and similar statements are based on the unproven hypothesis that human produced CO2 is causing warming and or climate change. The evidence is based solely on the output of 18 computer climate models selected by the IPCC. There are a multitude of problems including the fact that every time they run them they produce different results. They use an average of all the runs. The IPCC then take the average results of the 18 models and average them for the results in their Reports.

Tim Palmer, a leading climate modeler at the European Centre for Medium - Range Weather Forecasts said, “I don’t want to undermine the IPCC, but the forecasts, especially for regional climate change, are immensely uncertain.” This comment is partly explained by the scale of the General Circulation Models (GCM). The models are mathematical constructs that divide the world into rectangles. Size of the rectangles is critical to the abilities of the models as the IPCC AR4 acknowledges. “Computational constraints restrict the resolution that is possible in the discretized equations, and some representation of the large-scale impacts of unresolved processes is required (the parametrization problem). “ (AR4 Chapter 8. p.596.)

The IPCC uses surface weather data, which means there is inadequate data in space and time for most of the world to create an accurate model. Limitations of the surface data are surpassed by an almost complete lack of information above the surface. An illustration of the surface problem is identified by the IPCC comment of the problems of modeling Arctic climates.

“Despite advances since the TAR, substantial uncertainty remains in the magnitude of cryospheric feedbacks within AOGCMs. This contributes to a spread of modelled climate response, particularly at high latitudes. At the global scale, the surface albedo feedback is positive in all the models, and varies between models much less than cloud feedbacks. Understanding and evaluating sea ice feedbacks is complicated by the strong coupling to polar cloud processes and ocean heat and freshwater transport. Scarcity of observations in polar regions also hampers evaluation.” (AR4.,Chapter 8, p593.) Most of the information for the Arctic came from the Arctic Climate Impact Assessment (ACIA) and a diagram from that report illustrates the problem.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/7116
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 05:43 pm
@Foxfyre,
To begin with the IPCC does no research. They merely compile the known scientific research. The published papers are not published in a vacuum. They are reviewed prior to publication and comment occurs after it is published.

Your author doesn't seem to understand that any better than you do.
Good ole Dr Ball, can't even seem to get his resume accurate let alone his facts about the IPCC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Ball

But when he argues that a projection isn't a prediction he loses all credibility for me. A projection is NOT a prediction and no one claims it is. Every model gives ranges based on statistical analysis. This isn't proof that any of the science is wrong. It is whining about the media's take on the IPCC report on the known science.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 06:00 pm
@parados,
I believe Dr. Ball was rather specific about the information that the IPCC uses and trying to infer that he is saying something different than what he says probably won't work with him either. Do you have anything to refute his opinion other than your quite consistent and predictable opinion that anybody disputing the IPCC conclusions is a terrible person?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 06:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
Really? Could you point out the specifics of the science that Dr Ball refutes? Dr Ball's statements are very vague and don't deal with any of the data.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 06:07 pm
@parados,
Naw I think he pretty well with the specifics. I'll just take that as a no, you don't have anything to refute his opinion. Of course you could point out how he was less vague and nonspecific than you are here, and therefore doesn't provide any targets to refute.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:15 pm
@Foxfyre,
So Fox, if something is "very likely" to happen do you think that means it is "certain" to happen?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:58 pm
@parados,
Answer my question please and then I'll answer yours. No fair dodging the question by filibustering with questions.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 08:02 pm
@Foxfyre,
LOL Fox..
I see you can't answer my question which goes to the heart of the article you posted.

The article claims that the IPCC is confusing people into thinking "very likely" means "certain."

I don't think they mean the same thing. I am asking you if you think they mean the same thing.

No one I know thinks "very likely" means "certain". Are you confused about the terms Fox? Can you find 2 people that think they mean the same thing?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 08:24 pm
@parados,
Please quote the phrase you're referring to within its whole context.

I see this one:
Quote:
Professor Roy Spencer says about probabilities in this context. “Any statements of probability are meaningless and misleading. I think the IPCC made a big mistake. They’re pandering to the public not understanding probabilities. When they say 90 percent, they make it sound like they’ve come up with some kind of objective, independent, quantitative way of estimating probabilities related to this stuff. It isn’t. All it is is a statement of faith.”

So they create an appearance of certainty about a human cause of warming. But what is the reality? The only place where CO2 is causing temperature increase is in the IPCC computer models.


So what is vague or incorrect about that?

What can you offer from a credible source to refute it?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 06:39 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
When they say 90 percent, they make it sound like they’ve come up with some kind of objective, independent, quantitative way of estimating probabilities related to this stuff

Actually, it doesn't sound like that at all to me. Why does it sound that way to you?
Can you provide any evidence that the public sees it the way Spencer says? He provides no evidence. It is merely his unsupported opinion.


The only argument against this probability of it being human caused is in the following paragraph and is incomplete in its assessment.
Quote:
But what is the reality? The only place where CO2 is causing temperature increase is in the IPCC computer models.
This is NOT true. CO2 causes temperature increases in every experiment. If you increase the CO2 in a gas mixture, the gas will retain more heat from certain IR spectra.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=if-carbon-dioxide-makes-u
Quote:
The heating effect of extra carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide and many other minor gases can be calculated with confidence based on the absorption properties that have been measured carefully in the laboratory.


Since we know the heating effect of CO2 in the laboratory. Please explain why CO2 in the atmosphere would act differently. Unless you can explain why and how CO2 would absorb heat differently in the atmosphere compared to the lab we have an example of your author ignoring facts.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 06:46 am
@parados,
The infrared spectrum of CO2 has been known for decades
Here is a paper on it from 1933
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v43/i9/p716_1


Other information -
http://www.wag.caltech.edu/home/jang/genchem/infrared.htm

http://science.widener.edu/svb/ftir/ir_co2.html

Now, tell us Fox, how and why do you think the author is correct when he claims the ONLY evidence of CO2 warming the atmosphere is in models? It can be shown in lab experiments and has been done in those experiments for over 70 years.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:57 am
@parados,
Nobody has questioned that CO2 has increased. Based on the opinion of scientists on both sides of the debate, there is no question about that. There is a lot of room to debate whether most of that increase is a result of rather than a cause of global warming or whether it is coincidental to global warming. Many credible scientists agree that man generated CO2 is so insignificant when compared to that occuring naturally that it is not having significant effect.

Also there is much room to debate whether the higher CO2 levels, even if they do contribute to global warming, will have any kind of devastating effect on humankind or, even if they do, whether humankind has any ability to do anything about it. It is here that there seems to be the most criticism of the pro-AGW models as the climate doesn't seem to be cooperating with the doomsday scenarios the models indicate.

We do know that human, plants, and wildlife thrive much more effectively when the world is warmer, so some global warming could actually be a good thing and we know there have been cycles of Planet Earth in which mean temperatures were much higher than they are now. If we are in a natural upward trend, our resources and efforts would be much better spent on helping humankind adapt to naturally changing climate conditions than they are spent in trying to stop naturally changing climate conditions.

All this should be part of the debate. I look at it all and refuse to be a fanatic re one side or the other. But I am not willing to sit by passively while a bunch of AGW religionists propose to take away freedoms, choices, opportunities, and prosperity for humankind based on what appears could very well be bogus science.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 01:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre, tweeking can be done by modifying the programming of the interpretation of algebraic expressions. It can be done by adjusting the values of one or more constants in such algebraic expressions. It can be done by merely making a subtle change of such algebraic expressions.

More likely, computer models themselves are designed on the basis of a set of explicit and implicit assumptions, some of which are not previously verified. Ignorance alone can actually be the culprit. For example, if one variable is constantly increasing and another constantly decreasing, the algebraic expression can easily be modiified by increasing or decreasing the value of an assumed constant to get the relationship between those variables one seeks.

In engineering work, much of our modelling problems were caused by our failure to adequately understand the significance of one or more variables. When we overcame these failures, we did so only after exhaustive comparisons and adjustments over time of what we wanted our models to represent versus what they actually represented. We were persistent in our search for our errors while we sought valid solutions.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
CO2 absorbs IR and heats up. It is a simple thing to understand. The MORE CO2 the more heat is absorbed in a gaseous mixture.

This has been known for over 70 years and can be shown in experiments in the laboratory.

The author you presented said there is NO evidence of something that is a well known scientific fact.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:17 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

CO2 absorbs IR and heats up. It is a simple thing to understand. The MORE CO2 the more heat is absorbed in a gaseous mixture.

This has been known for over 70 years and can be shown in experiments in the laboratory.

The author you presented said there is NO evidence of something that is a well known scientific fact.


What well known scientific fact? We have presented reams of opinion from credentialed and reputable scientists that believe CO2 increases more likely follows rather than cause global warming and the real culprit of global warming are solar variances and water vapor which in turn increase CO2. So who is right? You? Or them? I don't know. Do you?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:20 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Foxfyre, tweeking can be done by modifying the programming of the interpretation of algebraic expressions. It can be done by adjusting the values of one or more constants in such algebraic expressions. It can be done by merely making a subtle change of such algebraic expressions.

More likely, computer models themselves are designed on the basis of a set of explicit and implicit assumptions, some of which are not previously verified. Ignorance alone can actually be the culprit. For example, if one variable is constantly increasing and another constantly decreasing, the algebraic expression can easily be modiified by increasing or decreasing the value of an assumed constant to get the relationship between those variables one seeks.

In engineering work, much of our modelling problems were caused by our failure to adequately understand the significance of one or more variables. When we overcame these failures, we did so only after exhaustive comparisons and adjustments over time of what we wanted our models to represent versus what they actually represented. We were persistent in our search for our errors while we sought valid solutions.


Well yes, I would think an engineer would want valid and reliable numbers as there is no advantage to falsifying them and there can be heavy consequences for being wrong.

But would you say that somebody COULD and possibly even WOULD tweak a number here and there to produce a desired result if there was sufficient motivaton to do so? And can I conclude from your explanation that it would be very difficult for somebody just reviewing the methodology in a peer review to pick up on that tweak? And even if it was an inadvertent error?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:39 pm
@Foxfyre,
What links? Combing back through the pages reveals no links to reams of data.

I only see links to lots of opinion pieces from you Fox but no scientific data that has been peer reviewed.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 03:29 pm
@parados,
Well you know what? This thread has been going continuously for more than three years now and I don't know precisely at what point I might have seen or linked myself all the stuff that has been presented and linked over all that time nor the sources that were linked.

But if it will help expedite things, I will express it as my opinion that I have linked and have seen materials others have linked that makes it less than 100% certain that CO2 is the cause of global warming or even a significant cause of global warming rather than being a result of or following global warming. I will further express as my opinion that I have linked and have seen materials others have linked suggesting that while CO2 may be a factor, the most likely causes of global warming are:
1) Normal climate cycles due to Earth wobble or other regularly occuring anomalies.
2) Water vapor
3) Solar influence

Not necessarily in that order.

It is also my opinion that I have posted and have seen posted rebuttal to those theories, but all things considered, it is my opinion that those claiming natural causes for global warming have made a more credible and plausible case for their beliefs than have the AGW proponents.
 

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