Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

That's why I have no problem with T Boone Pickens at least so far as his newest venture goes so long as he doesn't misrepresent the product to the investors and/or buyers.

What do you mean by "misrepresent"?

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Why doesn't Pickens just do whatever every other normal businessman does, go out and build his wind turbines if that is what he thinks is a good venture. Let him go to the utility companies, and work out a deal. If he needs investment, do it like everyone else. If anyone thinks oil is a profitable venture, they can go out and get leases and do some drilling, its a free country. If the profits are to be made, then they are successful.

What raises a red flag for me is that Pickens is trying to turn this into some kind of a national referendum on his investments or whatever it is. He is a promoter, plain and simple. Now, if he does not misrepresent his product, then no problem, otherwise there is a problem, and he creating a situation where problems can crop up. Already, you have Pelosi investing, and if there is any government manipulation, its trouble. Also, we know already that utilities are heavily regulated by government entities. And he has already been to Washington to tout his plan. Red flags.

I think he is just an old guy with money, bored, and he wants attention. Why is he so special? Theres plenty of people out there already putting up wind turbines all over the place. If he is so big on wind turbines, I say to him, start building them instead of spending his time advertising to the public. It is the utilities he needs to visit. Go to them and give them his dog and pony show.

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@old europe,

old europe wrote:

There you go. That's what I mean.

So if you say that Big Oil is completely up front about being in it for the money, and we now see that big time investors into renewables are in it for the money... what's your quibble with the trend towards renewables?

Where do you see in my discussions of T Boone Pickens that I HAVE any problem with the trend toward renewables?

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@old europe,

old europe wrote:

Quote:
That's why I have no problem with T Boone Pickens at least so far as his newest venture goes so long as he doesn't misrepresent the product to the investors and/or buyers.

What do you mean by "misrepresent"?

Quote:

From Miriam Webster:
Main Entry: mis·rep·re·sent
Function: transitive verb
Pronunciation: (")mis-"re-pri-'zent
1 : to give a false or misleading representation of usually with an intent to deceive or be unfair <misrepresented the facts>
2 : to serve badly or improperly as a representative of

1 Reply

@okie,

Quote:

What raises a red flag for me is that Pickens is trying to turn this into some kind of a national referendum on his investments or whatever it is.

Let me say that I have the impression that "domestic drilling" has been turned into some kind of a national referendum as well, and that it is in the interest of the oil companies to do so.

What I fail to see is why this is, all of a sudden, being criticized as something other than whatever every other normal business does.

Marketing, lobbying for and selling your product is most certainly part of doing business.

(Personally, that's what I've always been saying when people said that we should be grateful to Big Oil - they're just in it for the money. And that's why they are lobbying for more drilling. That's why they're promoting their product. Not because they are particularly patriotic or altruistic. And the same is true for Pickens.)

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@okie,

okie wrote:

Why doesn't Pickens just do whatever every other normal businessman does, go out and build his wind turbines if that is what he thinks is a good venture. Let him go to the utility companies, and work out a deal. If he needs investment, do it like everyone else. If anyone thinks oil is a profitable venture, they can go out and get leases and do some drilling, its a free country. If the profits are to be made, then they are successful.

What raises a red flag for me is that Pickens is trying to turn this into some kind of a national referendum on his investments or whatever it is. He is a promoter, plain and simple. Now, if he does not misrepresent his product, then no problem, otherwise there is a problem, and he creating a situation where problems can crop up. Already, you have Pelosi investing, and if there is any government manipulation, its trouble. Also, we know already that utilities are heavily regulated by government entities. And he has already been to Washington to tout his plan. Red flags.

I think he is just an old guy with money, bored, and he wants attention. Why is he so special? Theres plenty of people out there already putting up wind turbines all over the place. If he is so big on wind turbines, I say to him, start building them instead of spending his time advertising to the public. It is the utilities he needs to visit. Go to them and give them his dog and pony show.

I think he's a brilliant business man who is imperfect as we are all imperfect. Do I think he has been 100% honest and forthcoming in all his business dealings? Considering the cloud of witnesses testifying for and against him over his lifetime, maybe. Maybe not.

But I think he is doing it the way he is doing it because he has an instinct for how the big bucks can be made and he's going after it. He didn't become a multi-billionaire by being orthodox in his methods or doing it the way everybody else would do it. I think he could probably finance his scheme all on his own, but what fun would there be in that? He doesn't NEED the money. Making money is his hobby, his life work, his reason for getting out of bed in the morning.

Me? I do other stuff.

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OE. Again I answered your questions. Would you answer mine please?

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@Foxfyre,

I think that people need to realize that Pickens is advertising FOR investors. I every now and then see hedge funds and other investments advertised on TV, and always wondered why they did that; but apparently it's a great way to get people to your website, and that leads to VC.

Cycloptichorn

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@Foxfyre,

Yes.

But what do you mean by it?

If I tell you that this particular, wonderful knife set is the best deal you can get anywhere in the world - how much of that is misrepresentation, and how much of it is really just marketing, trying to sell a product?

Same goes for renewables. People will tell you that renewables are a green energy source - but they really only want to make a lot of money by selling electricity. Is that a misrepresentation?

Same for oil. People will tell you that you need to drill domestically, or else the American economy will crumble and fall - but they really only want to make a lot of money by selling more oil. Is that a misrepresentation?

---

Hence my question: what do you mean by misrepresentation? Specifically regarding renewables and alternative energy sources etc.

1 Reply

@old europe,

old europe wrote:

Yes.

But what do you mean by it?

If I tell you that this particular, wonderful knife set is the best deal you can get anywhere in the world - how much of that is misrepresentation, and how much of it is really just marketing, trying to sell a product?

Same goes for renewables. People will tell you that renewables are a green energy source - but they really only want to make a lot of money by selling electricity. Is that a misrepresentation?

Same for oil. People will tell you that you need to drill domestically, or else the American economy will crumble and fall - but they really only want to make a lot of money by selling more oil. Is that a misrepresentation?

---

Hence my question: what do you mean by misrepresentation? Specifically regarding renewables and alternative energy sources etc.

By misrepresentation I mean selling investors snake oil instead of something that is real. In American marketing (and probably in other places too), it is okay to say that your product is best even when it isn't since 'better' or 'best' is subjective and can be interpreted many ways. But you can't say your product will cure cancer when it won't. And you can't honestly tell an investor that an investment will probably deliver more than you know it ever will. The fact that somebody hopes to make money is irrelevant to those basic facts.

Now please answer my question to you.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

Where do you see in my discussions of T Boone Pickens that I HAVE any problem with the trend toward renewables?

Here:

Quote:

But how much of all this other stuff--hybrids, solar, off-limit to drilling, and a plethora of scientific AGW studies, projects, reports, and conclusions--is also driven by a profit motive? And who do we have in government benefitting from that profit motive whether to boost their poll numbers, generate campaign contributions, or punch up their own investments or prospects?

I think we can learn a whole lot about the validity of a lot of things by following the money.

You're talking about the trend towards renewables - specifically mentioning hybrid cars and solar energy - and then question the validity of it.

---

And just to pre-empt the charge that I'm misrepresenting what you're saying: yes, I realize that you don't talk about the general trend towards renewables. However, you're talking about the manifestation of that trend - higher visibility in politics, in campaigns and in the platforms of specific candidates.

1 Reply

@old europe,

old europe wrote:

Quote:
Where do you see in my discussions of T Boone Pickens that I HAVE any problem with the trend toward renewables?

Here:

Quote:
But how much of all this other stuff--hybrids, solar, off-limit to drilling, and a plethora of scientific AGW studies, projects, reports, and conclusions--is also driven by a profit motive? And who do we have in government benefitting from that profit motive whether to boost their poll numbers, generate campaign contributions, or punch up their own investments or prospects?

I think we can learn a whole lot about the validity of a lot of things by following the money.

You're talking about the trend towards renewables - specifically mentioning hybrid cars and solar energy - and then question the validity of it.

---

And just to pre-empt the charge that I'm misrepresenting what you're saying: yes, I realize that you don't talk about the general trend towards renewables. However, you're talking about the manifestation of that trend - higher visibility in politics, in campaigns and in the platforms of specific candidates.

I was not discussing renewables. I was discussing the motives of those who would misrepresent the benefit of renewables . Different subject.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

I was not discussing renewables. I was discussing the motives of those who would misrepresent the benefit of renewables . Different subject.

Okay, no problem. We can discuss that separately.

However, that brings me back to the earlier point: How are "those who would misrepresent the benefit of renewables" doing that, exactly? What are they saying that constitutes a misrepresentation? And, as you pointed out earlier, not just marketing of a product, but rather saying "your product will cure cancer when it won't".

What are they saying that you take issue with?

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What y'all getting excited about misrepresentation for?

Quote:

Things are seldom what they seem,
Skim milk masquerades as cream;
Highlows pass as patent leathers;
Jackdaws strut in peacock's feathers.

And you often see mutton dressed up as lamb.

Assume it's endemic. It'll save on nervous tension.

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@old europe,

The difference, oe, the way I see it is Congress has blocked leasing of certain areas, and have made them off limits to drilling. There is not the same prohibitions against wind turbines. So with oil, there is a congressional problem, so public pressure is needed. It has been made to be a polticial issue and decision. In contrast, Pickens just needs to build his wind turbines for his projects, no need for congressional action. I think though that Pickens is also angling for congress to push his program in some ways, I don't think its entirely clear. Any forthcoming tax break increases would benefit him temendously, financially, in regard to the ultimate success of his projects. And that is why I think it is very unwise for Pelosi to have invested with Pickens. His advertising can have at least two effects, it can attract investments, but it also raises awareness among citizens and subsequently to politicians, to take further action on government tax policies, etc. in regard to alternatives.

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@old europe,

old europe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I was not discussing renewables. I was discussing the motives of those who would misrepresent the benefit of renewables . Different subject.

Okay, no problem. We can discuss that separately.

However, that brings me back to the earlier point: How are "those who would misrepresent the benefit of renewables" doing that, exactly? What are they saying that constitutes a misrepresentation? And, as you pointed out earlier, not just marketing of a product, but rather saying "your product will cure cancer when it won't".

What are they saying that you take issue with?

Holy cow OE. With hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages and thousands of posts in this thread dealing with that very thing, I can't believe you are asking that question.

Let's just say that it can be summed up with one very general thought: those putting out a case for us all being in serious or grave danger from global warming and/or anthropogenic global warming using bogus or incomplete studies/science/evidence/facts are misrepresenting the facts. If they do this on purpose and profit from it, then they are intentionally harming others for their personal benefit.

Any remedies for 'non-existant' or 'non problematic' global warming that take away our personal choices, freedoms, preferences, opportunities, and power are the consequences for such misrepresentations and they hurt people.

And within that general scope is everything--oil production, refining, uses, lobbyists, advocacy groups, opportunists, renewables, rules, regulations, laws, environmental concerns, and what power one group of people should be allowed to exercise over another.

And to determine whether there is or is not misrepresentation of facts, we have looked a LOT at evidence presented, pro and con, as to whether claims are or are not legitimate. Some have come to the conclusion that there is no danger. Some of us continue to keep an open mind. Some are AGW religionists who refuse to even consider any point of view than their own.

So the beat goes on.

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@Foxfyre,

Yeah... I get that you have a beef with what you term "AGW religionists". I get that it's your opinion that they misrepresent facts. You're right, that would have been very hard to miss.

---

But that wasn't my question. I mean, I didn't ask you "how do the proponents of anthropogenic global warming misrepresent facts?"

Nope.

I was specifically referring to a statement you made a couple of posts ago - about "those who would misrepresent the benefit of renewables".

That seems to be a different crowd than your "AGW religionst" crowd. Unless good old Boone falls into that crowd.

And that's why I'm asking: what benefits of renewables are those that are in favour of those misrepresent?

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@old europe,

Sigh. I doubt you'll read what I'm saying here either, OE, but again.....if T Boone Pickens intentionally misrepresents the probable benefits of and profits from his wind farm schemes to his investors, the investors get hurt. I am NOT saying that he has, will, or might do that.

If it is required, without being necessary, that I drive a certain type vehicle that is not what I would prefer to drive, then some of my choices and freedoms have been taken from me. If biofuels are represented as effective but raise costs and create food shortages without any significant benefits resulting, then millions of people could get hurt.

And I, and I think some others posting on this thread, believe there is a good possibility that there are people who are intentionally misrepresenting facts re AGW for their own personal benefit and are hurting others in the process. I believe Al Gore is one of those people. There are others.

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@old europe,

That there's a solution of course. You can't see the wood for the trees.

You all want to feel that there's a solution. And they give a sense of it. Even make you hopeful.

Needless to say--there isn't one. If there was they would keep it a secret wouldn't they?

Buy hey! who cares? It's going okay. I'm off to the pub shortly. Lights will be on as usual. The ones who do it have my fondest gratitude. It's a good job they are not like St Francis.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

Sigh. I doubt you'll read what I'm saying here either, OE, but again.....

Why shouldn't I?

<grins>

Quote:

if T Boone Pickens intentionally misrepresents the probable benefits of and profits from his wind farm schemes to his investors, the investors get hurt. I am NOT saying that he has, will, or might do that.

Okay. You're just saying that you would be criticizing him in case he should, hypothetically speaking, misrepresent the benefits of renewables.

Quote:

If it is required, without being necessary, that I drive a certain type vehicle that is not what I would prefer to drive, then some of my choices and freedoms have been taken from me. If biofuels are represented as effective but raise costs and create food shortages without any significant benefits resulting, then millions of people could get hurt.

Again, hypothetically speaking. All right.

Quote:

And I, and I think some others posting on this thread, believe there is a good possibility that there are people who are intentionally misrepresenting facts re AGW for their own personal benefit and are hurting others in the process. I believe Al Gore is one of those people. There are others.

I know that's what you're thinking. I've acknowledged that. I just think that

misrepresenting the facts about global warming Not Equal

misrepresenting the benefits of renewables

Call me weird.

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