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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 04:36 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Ausra, a developer of utility-scale solar thermal power, has opened the first US solar thermal power factory, and the highest capacity plant in the world, in brightly lit Sin City. As if you needed another great reason to visit, right? The factory will produce reflectors, absorber tubes and other components of the company's solar thermal power plants, and will produce upwards of 700 MW of solar electricity generation equipment each year.


http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1856/83/

Cycloptichorn

I wonder what kind of pollution and how much will be generated in the production of these panels, and what kind of pollution and how much wiil be generated after they are brought on-line.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 04:39 pm
High Seas wrote:
username wrote:
The land bridge was land. The Bering Straits are comparatively shallow, around 50 meters deep, and sea level was on the order of 130 meters lower during the last ice age, so Siberia and Alaska were one. ............


Thank you very much, UserName. With all due deference, how can we account for the fact that the sea level managed to rise 130 meters since then? And if, perchance, no SUVs were involved, why is this Greenland glacier discussion on previous pages of this thread at all relevant? Any info appreciated Smile


0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 04:43 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Ausra, a developer of utility-scale solar thermal power, has opened the first US solar thermal power factory, and the highest capacity plant in the world, in brightly lit Sin City. As if you needed another great reason to visit, right? The factory will produce reflectors, absorber tubes and other components of the company's solar thermal power plants, and will produce upwards of 700 MW of solar electricity generation equipment each year.


http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1856/83/

Cycloptichorn

I wonder what kind of pollution and how much will be generated in the production of these panels, and what kind of pollution and how much wiil be generated after they are brought on-line.


Do you have an example of the kinds of pollution created during the operation of solar panels?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 04:56 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Do you have an example of the kinds of pollution created during the operation of solar panels?

Cycloptichorn


Fabrication of panels should ALSO be covered in this pollution accounting, of course, as well as ultimate disposal of same - lifecycle of product it's called in manufacturing.....
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 05:12 pm
High Seas wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Do you have an example of the kinds of pollution created during the operation of solar panels?

Cycloptichorn


Fabrication of panels should ALSO be covered in this pollution accounting, of course, as well as ultimate disposal of same - lifecycle of product it's called in manufacturing.....


Yeah, but I'm aware of those parts; I was wondering the pollution that was generated specifically by their usage.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 05:14 pm
LOL Cycl - "awareness" is of course a plus, but actual numerical calculations would be required in this case Smile
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 05:27 pm
There is natural change and there is human-induced change, high seas. The presence or absence of one has no necessary correlation with the presence or absence of the other. Duh.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 05:30 pm
username wrote:
There is natural change and there is human-induced change, high seas. The presence or absence of one has no necessary correlation with the presence or absence of the other. Duh.


"Necessary correlation" is now a MATHEMATICAL term?! Perhaps you meant to post under "teleology" in the Philosophy thread - and I'm being charitable.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 05:37 pm
Yes-- but what's the actual carbon footprint of solar panels and other fatuous exercises of virtuously screwing the earth up?

Why have you gone off topic all of a sudden?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 06:01 pm
Emissions from Photovoltaic Life Cycles
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2008 11:34 pm
And fresh in from the G8 summit in Japan this week:

Our leaders are in carbon-cloud cuckoo land
By Christopher Booker
10/07/2008

For a perfect example of what is meant by "gesture politics" - an empty pledge given solely for effect, which the politician has no hope of honouring - one could not do better than this week's commitment by the G8 leaders on how they want us to fight climate change.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/graphics/2008/07/10/do1004.jpg
If the G8's leaders genuinely wanted to cut carbon emissions by 50 per cent over the next 40 years, this would mean taking steps they haven't even begun to contemplate


Sitting on their cloud-wreathed Japanese mountain top, they solemnly agreed that, to halt global warming, their countries would aim by 2050 to halve their emissions of carbon dioxide.


If the G8's leaders genuinely wanted to cut carbon emissions by 50 per cent over the next 40 years, this would mean taking steps they haven't even begun to contemplate


A tiny indication of the fact that they didn't really have a clue what they were talking about was a slip by Japan's prime minister, Yasuo Fukuda, when he had to be corrected for announcing that the CO2 cut would be measured from "1990 levels".

Even when he amended this to "present-day levels", he was merely spouting empty words into the oriental air.

Three things make this aspiration by the leaders of the world's "eight richest countries" not just vainglorious grandstanding, but positively dangerous.

The first is that, as well as having no idea how they could achieve such an absurdly ambitious target, they may inflict immeasurable damage on their economies just by trying to do so.

One after another, it is becoming clear that all the costly measures so far proposed to cut carbon emissions are pie-in-the-sky.

The drive for "renewable" sources of energy, such as building thousands of wind turbines, is turning out to be little more than self-deception (the combined output of all the 2,000 wind turbines so far built in Britain is less than that of a single, medium-sized, gas-fired power station).

Even the environmentalists have realised that biofuels are a farce, needing more CO2 to produce than they save. The EU's much-vaunted "emissions trading scheme", so far costing us all an estimated £40 billion, has not resulted in any reductions of CO2 emissions whatever.

If the G8's leaders genuinely wanted to cut carbon emissions by 50 per cent over the next 40 years, this would mean taking steps they haven't even begun to contemplate. It would require such a drastic cut in our energy use and standard of living that their peoples would have risen up in mass revolt long before the target was reached.

And nothing better shows up the unreality of all this - as President Bush tried to point out in the summit's only flash of honesty - than the fact that China (not represented at the G8, although it now has the world's fourth largest economy) is already putting out more CO2 than anyone else.

As it builds two new coal-fired power stations a week, China has no more intention than India of joining the Western economic suicide club.

The second reason why this infatuation with cutting carbon emissions is beginning to look extraordinarily reckless is that the whole scientific theory on which it is based now appears distinctly questionable.

The orthodox global-warming thesis, accepted by pretty well every politician in the Western world, but not by a growing number of scientists, is that, as CO2 levels in the atmosphere continue to rise, so too should global temperatures. Unless we can drastically reduce those CO2 levels, the world is thus threatened with catastrophe.

In the past year or two, however, evidence has been piling up to suggest that there may be a fundamental flaw in this theory. Even though atmospheric CO2 has continued to rise to levels not seen since the distant geological past, temperatures have not been following suit.

After 2000 the global temperature curve flattened out at a level significantly lower than the freak year 1998, and in recent months temperatures have dropped to levels not seen since the early 1980s.

Despite the best efforts of the global-warming lobby to keep the scare going, the northern hemisphere enjoyed its coldest winter for decades, and this summer has shown the curve sinking even lower.

Even the warmists are having to find excuses for the fact that their theory doesn't exactly seem to be holding up, conceding that the next 10 years may see a period of global cooling, before the "underlying warming trend" returns worse than ever.

Other scientists point out that, rather than look to CO2 for an explanation of global temperatures, a much more convincing link can be seen in the activity of the sun, with current sunspot levels having dramatically fallen to levels associated with historic periods of global cooling recorded in the past.

Yet just when such huge question marks are being raised over the "CO2 equals warming" theory, our politicians have swallowed it whole, as an act of blind faith - using it to justify such massive costs to our economy that our whole way of life seems destined to change significantly for the worse.

The third respect in which all this is becoming seriously dangerous applies specifically to us here in Britain. While Gordon Brown prattles about wind turbines, and plays silly games for the cameras with electric cars, Britain within a few years is facing the near certainty of a massive shortfall in our electricity supplies.

By 2015, thanks to the obsolescence of our nuclear power plants and the forced closure of nine of our major coal and oil-fired power stations under EU anti-pollution rules, we are due to lose 40 per cent of our current generating capacity - and Mr Brown hasn't the slightest practical idea of how to fill the gap.

Forget the nonsense about a 50 per cent cut in carbon emissions by 2050. Our Government has already committed Britain to go even further, by imposing a statutory cut of 60 per cent through its Climate Change Bill.

But long before that, unless those who rule us come down out of cloud cuckoo land very fast, our lights will go out, our computers will shut down, our economy will judder to a halt and we shall face a national catastrophe. We may well be meeting that 60 per cent target sooner than we think - but not for reasons that reflect well on our politicians, of any party.
LINK
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 08:32 am
But at least some of the Democrats are beginning to come around and McCain at least is for offshore drilling though he still has his heels dug in on ANWR. Obama is still opposed to both at this time, but he has been all over the map so its hard to take him at his word about much of anything.

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/ca0702dd.jpg

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gm080710.jpg
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 11:32 am
We use 25% of the world's oil. We have 3% of the world's reserves. There's no way we can drill ourselves out of dependence on foreign oil.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 12:17 pm
You'll have to use less. You've used up most of your own oil. You've tried stealing other people's oil. Now reality begins to bite.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 12:39 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Ausra, a developer of utility-scale solar thermal power, has opened the first US solar thermal power factory, and the highest capacity plant in the world, in brightly lit Sin City. As if you needed another great reason to visit, right? The factory will produce reflectors, absorber tubes and other components of the company's solar thermal power plants, and will produce upwards of 700 MW of solar electricity generation equipment each year.


http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1856/83/

Cycloptichorn

I wonder what kind of pollution and how much will be generated in the production of these panels, and what kind of pollution and how much wiil be generated after they are brought on-line.


Do you have an example of the kinds of pollution created during the operation of solar panels?

Cycloptichorn

No! That's why I asked the question.

Do you?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 12:41 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Ausra, a developer of utility-scale solar thermal power, has opened the first US solar thermal power factory, and the highest capacity plant in the world, in brightly lit Sin City. As if you needed another great reason to visit, right? The factory will produce reflectors, absorber tubes and other components of the company's solar thermal power plants, and will produce upwards of 700 MW of solar electricity generation equipment each year.


http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1856/83/

Cycloptichorn

I wonder what kind of pollution and how much will be generated in the production of these panels, and what kind of pollution and how much wiil be generated after they are brought on-line.


Do you have an example of the kinds of pollution created during the operation of solar panels?

Cycloptichorn

No! That's why I asked the question.

Do you?


No! For to the best of my knowledge, the act of running solar panels is not a pollution-generating thing.

Their production and disposal, sure. But running them? I was surprised to see you include that on the list.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 12:47 pm

Quote:
Emissions from photovoltaic manufacturing
Submitted by Bruno De Wachter on Thu, 2008-05-29 05:30.
Environmental impact of the PV life-cycle


All means of electricity generation, including photovoltaic (PV) systems, create polluting emissions when the entire life-cycle is taken into account. In the case of PV systems, those emissions are concentrated in the manufacturing stage. PV manufacturing is energy intensive, resulting in the emissions that accompany the use of standard grid electricity. The energy balance of a PV system is expressed by the Energy Pay-Back Time (EPBT), which is the time it takes for the PV system to generate the amount of energy equal to that used in its production.
...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 12:53 pm
ican711nm wrote:

Quote:
Emissions from photovoltaic manufacturing
Submitted by Bruno De Wachter on Thu, 2008-05-29 05:30.
Environmental impact of the PV life-cycle


All means of electricity generation, including photovoltaic (PV) systems, create polluting emissions when the entire life-cycle is taken into account. In the case of PV systems, those emissions are concentrated in the manufacturing stage. PV manufacturing is energy intensive, resulting in the emissions that accompany the use of standard grid electricity. The energy balance of a PV system is expressed by the Energy Pay-Back Time (EPBT), which is the time it takes for the PV system to generate the amount of energy equal to that used in its production.
...


Yes, that is all well understood; but your original posting asked what kind of pollution would be produced after they have been brought online. I wondered if you had any specific knowledge of this; for it seems to me that solar does not produce any pollution at all, in the stage between construction and demolition.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 01:28 pm

Quote:
Emissions from photovoltaic manufacturing
Submitted by Bruno De Wachter on Thu, 2008-05-29 05:30.
Environmental impact of the PV life-cycle
...
According to this paper, the EPBT of a PV system varies between 1 and 6 years. Two years ago, a comparable literature study by the Energy Bulletin reported EPBTs between 2 and 8 years (see blog post).

EPBT varies according to site
The first part of the Environmental Science & Technology paper tackled the question of EPBT and Greenhouse Gas (GHG) emissions of PV systems. The larger the energy yield of the PV system, the faster the energy consumed during its manufacturing phase is gained back, so obviously the EPBT depends heavily upon the average insolation at a particular manufacturing site. The paper refers to four studies conducted on monochrystaline silicon PV panels in four different geographic regions:

In the Netherlands, with an insolation of 1,000 kWh/m2/yr, an average EPBT of 3.5 years was reported (A. Meijer, M.A.J. Huijbregts, J.J. Schermer, 2003)
In Switzerland, with an average insolation of 1,100 kWh/m2/yr, EPBT was found to vary between 3 and 6 years (N. Jungbluth, 2005)
For a rooftop installation in Southern Europe, enjoying an insolation of 1,700 kWh/m2/yr, a study calculated EPBT to be 1.7 to 2.7 years (E; Alsema, M. de Wild-Scholten, 2004)
For ground-mounted installations in the U.S., subjected to an insolation of 1,800 kWh/m2/yr, EPBT was calculated to be only 1.1 years (V.M. Fthenakis, H.C. Kim, 2005)
Greenhouse gas emissions in PV life-cycle
The GHG emissions over the life-cycle of a PV panel are strongly related to the EPBT. They can mainly be allocated to the use of electrical energy during the manufacture of PV panels. Consequently, those emissions differ for the same PV panel according to the energy mix that is used for generating electricity in that particular location.

The findings in the Environmental Science & Technology paper were calculated with three different energy mixes and for four different types of PV panels: multichrystaline silicon (Multi-Si), monochrystaline silicon (mono-Si), ribbon silicon (ribbon-Si) and thin film cadmium telluride (CdTe). In the UCTE energy mix, the CO2 emissions vary between 21 g CO2-eq/kWh for the thin film CdTe to 43 g CO2-eq/kWh for Mono-Si.

The Thin Film CdTe panel clearly demonstrates the best results, but differences between PV systems are small in comparison with the difference of PV systems and conventional fossil-fuel based generation. The UCTE average CO2 emission for power generation is 470 g CO2-eq/kWh.

Heavy metal emissions in PV life-cycle
The study not only takes GHG emissions over the life-cycle into account, but heavy metal emissions as well. Heavy metals are emitted directly during the manufacturing process of PV systems, or via the use of grid electricity during the manufacturing process. Here again thin-film CdTe PV panels present the best results, even for cadmium emissions. This type of PV cell requires much less electrical energy for its manufacture, so it produces fewer heavy metal emissions attributed to the use of grid electricity. This lower energy consumption more than compensates for the higher direct cadmium emissions occurring during its manufacturing process.

Continuous improvement
The above conclusions describe the picture with state-of-technology over the last five years, but should not be interpreted as final. The trend in the environmental impact of PV manufacturing is decreasing even further and the energy efficiencies are increasing. As a result, the EPBT and the life-cycle environmental profile of PV panels can be expected to continue to improve in the upcoming years.

The paper also considered the future possibility of a 'PV breeder' scenario, in which a large part of the electrical energy used in PV manufacturing is generated by PV panels. Such a scenario would cut the current GHG emissions of PV life-cycles more or less in half.

A last consideration in the paper is that a future high penetration of PV energy on the grid would require altering the grid concept and structure. It is difficult to predict whether these changes would have a positive or a negative impact on the emissions, but it would in each case have to be taken into account in future life-cycle analyses of PV systems.

References
Paper 'Emissions from Photovoltaic Life Cycles' by Environmental Science & Technology, January 2008, published on ACS Publications
Leonardo Energy blog article 'PV Systems: the energy to produce them versus the energy they produce'
Article 'Greenhouse gas emissions from energy systems: comparison and overview', Paul Scherrer Institute, 2003
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2008 01:37 pm
This article personifies the dilemma. On one hand these homeowners are commended for greening up their lifestyle while it is observed that they are still leaving a large carbon footprint--there is a not so subtle insinuation that if they were really serious about being green they would sell their big house and buy a little one.

Doing the math, it appears the electricity savings afforded by their elaborate solar system will pay for the system in 16 years or so plus whatever it costs to service/repair/maintain the system. Nor, other than the complicated data in the article Ican posted, do we know what carbon footprint was produced in the manufacture of the system which could likely need to be replaced after so many years.

The other factor not addressed is the possibility that technology will evolve to make it possible for homeowners using solar power to store sufficient energy to get them through the dark of night or cloudy days or whatever.

Sometimes we do make things harder than they have to be. But seldom is anything hard as simple as it appears to be.

Greenwash Watch: Solar Panels Do Not A Green House Make
by Lloyd Alter, Toronto on 12. 1.07
Design & Architecture

http://www.treehugger.com/2007-12-01_115920palmbeach.jpg

Addison Mizner goes off-grid in Sharada and Don Alducin's 4,800 SF Palm Beach house, complete with twin laundry rooms, gourmet kitchen, three-zone air-conditioning system and 1,000-bottle wine cellar, powered by $65,000 worth of solar panels. Admirably, the Alducins have made lifestyle changes to suit; all their bulbs are CFL and their schedules changed. "I don't wash anything until the sun is up," says Sharada.

The Palm Beach Post's Barbara Marshall writes "They aren't the least bit crunchy.... Their art-filled home with the silk sofas and grand piano is definitely no hippie haven. It's proof that green can be glamorous." and in one sentence proves how the word "green" has been devalued beyond recognition.

This house is energy efficient and Don is correct when he says "It's just the right thing to do," but as Miss Peggy Lee might have put it, "Is that all there is, to green?". And puleeze, for how long are we going to have to live with lame hippie references.

Even the writer notes the contradictions;

"At night or when the sun isn't shining, the Alducins pull power from FPL's grid, like any ordinary house.

"We still pay $300 to $400 to FPL every month, but a house this size would normally cost $700 a month," Don says, for a yearly savings of between $3,600 to $4,800. And if purists should ask why the Alducins didn't just build a smaller home or get by with fewer appliances if they're so concerned with sustainable living, Don has an answer ready.

"I'm not about to do that or keep the thermostat at 78," says Don, who likes his thermostat set at 74 degrees. "We want to be comfortable."

We would not suggest that if Don and Sharada have the bucks, they are not entitled to be comfortable. Nor do we disparage the icynene insulation, solar hot water and photovoltaics; they are great. Congratulations to them both for doing the right thing in reducing their electricity consumption in a coal-powered state.

We do suggest that there is more to being green than just saving energy, that the word has been co-opted and it is time for a new one, because by any definition I know, this house isn't green.--Palm Beach Post
TREE HUGGER LINK
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