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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 11:05 am
Quote:
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17977

Mars Is Warming, NASA Scientists Report

Data coincide with increasing solar output
Written By: James M. Taylor
Published In: Environment News
Publication Date: November 1, 2005
Publisher: The Heartland Institute


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The planet Mars is undergoing significant global warming, new data from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) show, lending support to many climatologists' claims that the Earth's modest warming during the past century is due primarily to a recent upsurge in solar energy.


Martian Ice Shrinking Dramatically

According to a September 20 NASA news release, "for three Mars summers in a row, deposits of frozen carbon dioxide near Mars' south pole have shrunk from the previous year's size, suggesting a climate change in progress." Because a Martian year is approximately twice as long as an Earth year, the shrinking of the Martian polar ice cap has been ongoing for at least six Earth years.

The shrinking is substantial. According to Michael Malin, principal investigator for the Mars Orbiter Camera, the polar ice cap is shrinking at "a prodigious rate."

"The images, documenting changes from 1999 to 2005, suggest the climate on Mars is presently warmer, and perhaps getting warmer still, than it was several decades or centuries ago," reported Yahoo News on September 20.


Solar Link Possible

Scientists are not sure whether the Martian warming is entirely due to Mars-specific forces or may be the result of other forces, such as increasing solar output, which would explain much of the recent asserted warming of the Earth as well.

Sallie Baliunas, chair of the Science Advisory Board at the George C. Marshall Institute, said, "Pluto, like Mars, is also undergoing warming." However, Baliunas speculated it is "likely not the sun but long-term processes on Mars and Pluto" causing the warming. However, until more information is gathered, Baliunas said, it is difficult to know for sure.

Pat Michaels, past president of the American Association of State Climatologists and senior fellow at the Cato Institute, similarly expressed a desire for more information about the Martian climate. "What is the internal dynamic that is warming Mars?" asked Michaels. "Given the fact that there are not a lot of anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions on Mars, and given the fact that new research indicates that 10 to 30 percent estimated conservatively of Earth's recent warming is due to increased solar output, the Martian warming may support that new research."


Models May Be Wrong

The new research mentioned by Michaels is the October 2 release of findings by Duke University scientists that "at least 10 to 30 percent of global warming measured during the past two decades may be due to increased solar output rather than factors such as increased heat-absorbing carbon dioxin gas released by various human activities."

"The problem is that Earth's atmosphere is not in thermodynamic equilibrium with the sun," Duke associate research scientist Nicola Scafetta explained in a Duke University news release. Moreover, "the longer the time period [that the Earth's atmosphere is not in thermodynamic equilibrium] the stronger the effect will be on the atmosphere, because it takes time to adapt."

Examining a 22-year interval of reliable solar data going back to 1980, the Duke scientists were able to filter out shorter-range effects that can influence surface temperatures but are not related to global warming. Such effects include volcanic eruptions and ocean current changes such as El NiƱo.

Applying their long-term data, the Duke scientists concluded, "the sun may have minimally contributed about 10 to 30 percent of the 1980-2002 global surface warming."

"[Greenhouse] gases would still give a contribution, but not so strong as was thought," Scafetta observed.


Several Forces Affect Temperature

"We don't know what the sun will do in the future," Scafetta added. "For now, if our analysis is correct, I think it is important to correct the climate models so that they include reliable sensitivity to solar activity."

Iain Murray, senior fellow and global warming specialist at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, said the Mars warming adds another level of uncertainty to claims that the Earth's modest recent warming is a result of human activity. "It is probably too much to claim that any one source is the principal driver of the warming trend on Earth," said Murray.

"The number of significant temperature forcings on the climate system grows yearly as we get to know more and more about it, but we really are at a very early stage of our exploration of this very complex system," Murray noted. "If all the estimates are true about the relative effects of forcings like the sun, black carbon, and greenhouse gases, then it is quite possible that we would have been in a sharply cooling phase over recent years were it not for these forcings. In which case, one might say, thank goodness for global warming!"
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 12:49 pm
High Seas wrote:
Foxfyre - please try not to laugh at the reading comprehension difficulties of our infantile poster; he may be one of the test subjects here:

Quote:
in most cases psychiatric disorder is indirectly caused by speech and language retardation.


http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/5/583

Parados better have some medic look into his problems, though, before the dark sequels described in that article become irreversible Smile


Foxfyre wrote:
Yes, ad hominem posts so inspire confidence in intelligence, don't they. (If I was going to choose a member as typical of lack of intelligence, it sure wouldn't be High Seas.)


Ad hominem posts do inspire confidence in intelligence, don't they Fox?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 02:46 pm
parados wrote:
High Seas wrote:
Foxfyre - please try not to laugh at the reading comprehension difficulties of our infantile poster; he may be one of the test subjects here:

Quote:
in most cases psychiatric disorder is indirectly caused by speech and language retardation.


http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/5/583

Parados better have some medic look into his problems, though, before the dark sequels described in that article become irreversible Smile


Foxfyre wrote:
Yes, ad hominem posts so inspire confidence in intelligence, don't they. (If I was going to choose a member as typical of lack of intelligence, it sure wouldn't be High Seas.)


Ad hominem posts do inspire confidence in intelligence, don't they Fox?


Your ad hominem - an unprovoked personally directed insult.
The follow up post(s) were rebutta/objection to your unproked personally directed insult. I think intelligent members can see the difference. Can you? If so an appropriate acknowledgment might put the matter behind us all.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 03:35 pm
This article clearly illustrates profit motives on both sides of the AGW debate. We frequently see entities applauded for their 'noble' advocacy for fighting global warming and see others demonized for opposing regulations and policies that will increase economic miseries for those least able to afford them.

Apparently enough of our elected leaders represent both and that puts them in a dilemma. We are already seeing real hardships resulting from some policies already out there and we aren't seeing much positive effect from many of these. We can hope that finally both sides of the debate might be put on equal footing to make their case.

Last Updated: May 30, 2008
Chances dim for climate-change legislation
Business coalition splinters, and without widespread corporate support, the bill headed to the Senate is almost certainly doomed.
By Marc Gunther, senior editor
FORTUNE 500

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- An influential coalition of Fortune 500 companies and environmental groups that was formed to support climate-change legislation has splintered over the Lieberman-Warner bill that is headed next week to the Senate floor.

The U.S. Climate Action Partnership formed last year won't take a position on the bill, although nine of its members - including General Electric (GE, Fortune 500), Alcoa (AA, Fortune 500) and four utility companies - signed a letter to senators backing the legislation.

The letter, also signed by big environmental groups and obtained by Fortune, says: "Prompt action on climate change is essential to protect America's economy, security, quality of life and natural environment."

But other members of the coalition known as U.S. Cap, most visibly Duke Energy (DUK, Fortune 500), a coal-burning utility, are strongly opposed. "It's going to translate into significant electricity price increases," says Jim Rogers, Duke's CEO.

Without widespread corporate support, passage of the bill - already a long shot at best - becomes even more unlikely this year. President Bush remains opposed. House Democrats have been slow to act.

Besides that, a backdrop of rising gasoline prices and the sluggish economy makes it difficult to win votes for a regulatory scheme that will raise the prices of electricity and gasoline. In fact, a key purpose of the bill is to put a price on the emissions of greenhouse gases, as a way to speed the transition to a clean-energy economy and slow down global warming.

With the Senate scheduled to begin debate Monday, lobbying and advertising around the bill are intensifying. (Here's a new TV commercial supporting the bill from Environmental Defense Fund, and a radio ad opposing the bill from the Club for Growth.) But even supporters concede that the debate will set the scene for action in 2009.

"This will put us in a position to have action next year," says David Doniger, director of the climate center at the Natural Resources Defense Council, a supporter of the bill. "We expect in the Senate that the 60-vote rule will be applied. That's a hard one to get over."

"It's a teachable moment," agreed Scott Segal, an advocate for coal-burning utilities that oppose Lieberman-Warner.

The Lieberman-Warner bill sets a cap on greenhouse gas emissions that would reduce them by 70% by 2050. Companies would need permits to emit pollutants that cause global warming. The government would allocate some permits to utilities and industrial companies, and auction others to generate revenues. The question of how to distribute permits and what to do with the money divides even supporters of greenhouse gas regulation.

As currently written, Lieberman-Warner might fall short of a 50-vote majority in the Senate, let alone the 60 votes required to close debate, insiders say. Presidential candidates (and Senators) Clinton, McCain and Obama all support climate-change legislation.

Businesses supporting Lieberman-Warner stand to profit from clean-energy or energy-efficiency iniatitives. GE, for instance, sells wind turbines, compact fluorescent lightbulbs, and energy-efficient locomotives and aircraft engines. Just this week, GE and the oil-field services firm Schlumberger announced plans to work together on clean-coal technology.

Utility companies Exelon, FPL Group, NRG Energy and PG&E Corp., which signed a letter supporting the bill, are developing nuclear energy, wind or solar power, or so-called clean-coal plants. They would gain as the costs of burning coal in conventional plans goes up. About 50% of electricity in the United States comes from burning coal.

"In the long run, you want people who burn carbon to pay more," says John Rowe, the CEO of Exelon, the nation's biggest generator of nuclear power. Still, even Rowe worries that the economy could be shocked if the cost of emitting carbon dioxide rises too quickly. "We don't think the economy can stand $30 to $40 carbon in the early years," he says. Political support for climate action could also erode if consumers revolt. In Europe, where permits to emit carbon have been trading since 2005, it now costs nearly $40 to emit a ton of carbon.

The Environmental Defense Fund circulated the letter supporting the bill, which was also signed by U.S. Cap members NRDC and the National Wildlife Federation. The letter was put together in a hurry, a backer said, and not all of the 30 or so companies in U.S. Cap were asked to sign it. The climate action coalition was announced with great fanfare in January of last year.

Rogers, Duke Energy's CEO, says he supports climate action but warns that Lieberman-Warner would have a "draconian effect" on his customers and others in the 25 states that now burn 80% of the coal in the United States. It's unfair, he argues, to place the burden of solving the climate-change problem on coal-burning states, which were urged by regulators to build coal plants in the 1970s and 1980s to achieve energy independence.

"I believe in cap and trade. I believe we ought to put a price on carbon," Rogers says. But senators who want to auction permits, and then use the money for a variety of projects - ranging from deficit reduction to water projects to job training - threaten to turn the climate-change bill into the "ultimate in earmarking."

Billions of dollars are at stake in this argument over how to auction or allocate the pollution permits. The outcome is "almost surely going to be a product of a lot of horse-trading," says Exelon's Rowe, once a final bill is written.

But the fact that businesses and senators are arguing about the details suggests that agreement is growing over the broader idea that Congress ought to regulate greenhouse gases.

"There is absolutely a majority of support for a cap-and-trade bill in the U.S. Senate," says Manik Roy, director of congressional affairs for the Pew Center on Global Climate Change. But, as Duke's Rogers likes to say, "both God and the devil are in the details."
LINK
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 10:25 pm
It's all just a matter of ... perspective?

From today's The Observer (page 22)

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8259/73005499aq6.th.jpg
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 06:39 am
Foxfyre wrote:
parados wrote:
High Seas wrote:
Foxfyre - please try not to laugh at the reading comprehension difficulties of our infantile poster; he may be one of the test subjects here:

Quote:
in most cases psychiatric disorder is indirectly caused by speech and language retardation.


http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/5/583

Parados better have some medic look into his problems, though, before the dark sequels described in that article become irreversible Smile


Foxfyre wrote:
Yes, ad hominem posts so inspire confidence in intelligence, don't they. (If I was going to choose a member as typical of lack of intelligence, it sure wouldn't be High Seas.)


Ad hominem posts do inspire confidence in intelligence, don't they Fox?


Your ad hominem - an unprovoked personally directed insult.
The follow up post(s) were rebutta/objection to your unproked personally directed insult. I think intelligent members can see the difference. Can you? If so an appropriate acknowledgment might put the matter behind us all.

I see. So in your opinion, ad hominems are OK in some cases. Rolling Eyes

As I pointed out in a previous post, High Seas comment had several possibilities as did my post. You chose one and ignored all the other possibilities. High Seas has NOT explained her statement about how a group she says lacks intelligence that would include me would possibly think that the source for CO2 on Mars would be from SUVs. "Unprovoked" is a matter of opinion it seems.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 07:05 am
But anyway Fox. I realize you are having difficulty understanding my statement so let me explain it to you.

High Seas wrote:
So much for finding intelligent life on Mars - hard enough to find it here on Earth:

Quote:
...Mars Climate Orbiter, had a particularly humiliating crash, because the fault lay with a group of engineers who, in defiance of common sense, had continued to use imperial units of measurement in their calculations when all around had adopted the metric system.

This is High Seas example of how to difficult it is to find intelligent life on earth. Engineers used faulty data to make a conclusion.
Quote:

However, the new orbiter made it, and brings good news for the "pollution" experts: there's a lot of frozen CO2, maybe left over from assorted Martian SUVs roaming that planet:
This is High seas attempt at a joke. It uses faulty data in that no one has ever said that CO2 only exists because of SUVs on earth. She does say "maybe" about SUVs on Mars but it is still an outlandish statement not based on good data.


This leads to my comment and congratulations for High Seas. She is proving her original premise about difficutly in finding intelligent life on earth using faulty data like in her first example.


Let me repost my comment now
parados wrote:
High Seas wrote:
So much for finding intelligent life on Mars - hard enough to find it here on Earth:



However, the new orbiter made it, and brings good news for the "pollution" experts: there's a lot of frozen CO2, maybe left over from assorted Martian SUVs roaming that planet:



I see you have put yourself center stage as an example of lack of intelligence High Seas. Good job.


The funny part of this is that by agreeing with High Seas I am accused of an ad hominem.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 09:51 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
It's all just a matter of ... perspective?

From today's The Observer (page 22)

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8259/73005499aq6.th.jpg

Walter, its all a matter of comparing true benefits and true penalties to each other.

In the extreme, if we were to cause X million humans to prematurely die because of use of oil-based fuels, or if we were to cause X million humans to prematurely die because of use of agriculture-based fuels, then the issue would come down to which way to die would be more tolerable?

However, the actual situation with which we are confronted is that use of agriculture-based fuels is causing millions to be more hungary than before their use, while use of oil-based fuels is maybe causing the earth's average temperature to be somewhat higher than it would otherwise be. Worse, we have yet to examine how much the earth's average temperature is maybe caused to increase with use of agriculture-based fuels.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 11:24 am
damn I read one of ican's posts.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 12:33 pm
parados wrote:
But anyway Fox. I realize you are having difficulty understanding my statement so let me explain it to you.

...

Let me repost my comment now
parados wrote:
High Seas wrote:
So much for finding intelligent life on Mars - hard enough to find it here on Earth ...


...

I see you have put yourself center stage as an example of lack of intelligence High Seas. Good job.


The funny part of this is that by agreeing with High Seas I am accused of an ad hominem.


Extraordinary, Parados! You have done a fantastic job of manipulating the contexts of the posts of others to support your own opinions. Bravo! Cool
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 01:01 pm
Really it's like saving a heritage site from the developers.

On the one hand there are those who think "what the hell--make hay while the sun shines" and who only worry about what's pumped out when you can't see five yards through it and it makes you cough and on the other there are the faint-hearted tweetarts bleating away about saving the something, they know not what exactly, or even roughly, for somebody so far down the line or over the horizon as makes no difference to them and who can hardly take care of their kids never mind their gggggrandkids but who like nothing better than a good yelping and squeaking in a "good" cause. ( That's an example of the Naturalistic fallacy for those who haven't done a triple PHdeedeedee in philosophy or keep up on A2K's ID thread.) It only becomes "good" when you can prove it.

And neither of you can prove it because it is another of those funny things, like Test Match cricket, known as irreducible complexities. But the "make hay while the sun shines" brigade have the financial institutions on their side, including the pensioners and those deriving rewards from unproductive work, assuming psychological benefits are non-economic, which I don't, and I predict that they will drag the faint-hearted tweetarts kicking and screaming into the post-post-modern future second time round.

That's because the faint-hearted tweetarts are in the top 5% of the stamp your carbon on that brigade and they don't really mean what they say. Not if it applies to them. Personally I mean.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 01:04 pm
I forgot to say that the future's Orange.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 01:17 pm
Ican writes
Quote:
Extraordinary, Parados! You have done a fantastic job of manipulating the contexts of the posts of others to support your own opinions. Bravo!


What he said.

Meanwhile re the government forcing use of bio fuels and imposing or threatening to impose fines and punitive regulations on private industry has already proved to have unintended negative consequences. So you see some politicians saying let's don't use food crops for an energy source, but they continue to promote use of non-food crops such as cane etc. That's all well and good until food crops are abandoned and the land is converted to lucrative non food crops which also exacerbates food scarity and higher costs.

Those fines and punative regulations as well as mandates on oil, gas, and coal producers also increase the cost of food as well as all other basic products to levels that create real hardships on the less affluent.

Meanwhile our elected leaders that are actually paying attention are aware that the legislation they pass or vote down actually can affect lives in unintended negative ways. Maybe just maybe the current food and energy crunch will force them finally to take a look at the bigger picture that exists.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 01:38 pm
spendius wrote:
I forgot to say that the future's Orange.

The future's Orange, only if it's proved to be not Blue!

But what the hell! Let the Orange sayers assume the future is Orange and force the Blue sayers to comport themselves accordingly. That way the Orange sayers can handicap the Blue sayers from accomplishing anything more than the Orange sayers. That will at least make Orange sayers feel better about accomplishing less.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 05:10 pm
Oh no it won't.

The DOW would languish I fear. Their future performance has already been discounted.

Hasn't it?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jun, 2008 06:12 pm
spendius wrote:
Oh no it won't.

The DOW would languish I fear. Their future performance has already been discounted.

Hasn't it?

Well, I bet George Soros and company have engineered this whole global warming thing to supress the market. They've probably sold everything short they can get their hands on.

Isn't that how George got his first billion--selling British pounds or something short?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 06:11 am
Yes it is but I don't think he engineered it. He just called the market fundamentals correctly before anyone else did.

It is noteworthy though ican that you are not disputing my brief analysis.

At least the "MHWTSSB" are not hypocrites.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 06:51 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Ican writes
Quote:
Extraordinary, Parados! You have done a fantastic job of manipulating the contexts of the posts of others to support your own opinions. Bravo!


What he said.

And yet neither of you posted anything to support your claim of my manipulating context to support my opinion.

Please do so.

I won't hold my breath while I wait.


High Seas made the claim. I only agreed. Are you both denying that High Seas claimed there was evidence of lack of intelligence on earth? That would be the only way I can see where I would have manipulated the context.



On the other hand, Fox, you seem to have manipulated context to claim I was guilty of ad hominem while absolving High Seas. My statement had context and quoted High Seas and I later explained my statement and how I agreed with High Seas. High Seas will not be able to explain her post as anything other than a direct attack on me since it certainly didn't follow from her original statement.

Argumentum ad hominem

I agreed with High Seas about the lack of intelligence and congratulated her on her 2 examples, an anecdote and a personal example.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 07:20 am
And while you all argue about who is manipulating contexts and ad homs, as if there is much else, growth, in which you all are participating, goes on unhindered onwards and upwards and preventing it doing is a political NO-NO.

It's a joke.

Where's the Threadmaster gone?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 11:38 am
spendius wrote:
Yes it is but I don't think he engineered it. He just called the market fundamentals correctly before anyone else did.

It is noteworthy though ican that you are not disputing my brief analysis.

At least the "MHWTSSB" are not hypocrites.

Confused Who are the "MHWTSSB"?

You call it "brief analysis." I call it brief speculation. What's to dispute?

To again retrieve an old hollywood movie quote, "we shall see my little chickadee."
0 Replies
 
 

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