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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 03:14 pm
i understand that the MAUNDER MINIMUM deals with the LITTLE ICEAGE .
there was recently a very interesting special on BBC dealing with the little iceage .
excavations in ireland revealed how tree growth essentially stood still for several because of lack of sunlight and heat .
there also was very little crop growth - and sometimes none at all - during that period .
certainly must have been quite frightening .
hbg

link to BBC article (quite fascinating imo) :
CAUSE OF LITTLE ICE AGE ?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 04:09 pm
okie wrote:
parados wrote:
okie wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay folks, which do you prefer? Cooking? Or Freezing? Looks like it could go either way:

If it begins to go colder, count on it Foxfyre, the chorus of impending doom will be just as loud, if not louder. The U.N. scientists will have discovered by then a fatal flaw in their models that will explain all of it, and instead of man causing warming, it will be man causing cooling, and the sky will fall if the United States Nations and the United States in particular does not act quickly. It is all so predictable.

really okie? Do you know what the Maunder Minimum is? Rolling Eyes

No, professor, I wouldn't have a clue, and I am absolutely sure it would have nothing to do with earth's climate. The climate of the earth is entirely due to CO2 emissions from the machines and industrial facilities built by mankind.

Your strawman okie.. No one has ever claimed that.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 04:43 pm
parados wrote:
okie wrote:
parados wrote:
okie wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay folks, which do you prefer? Cooking? Or Freezing? Looks like it could go either way:

If it begins to go colder, count on it Foxfyre, the chorus of impending doom will be just as loud, if not louder. The U.N. scientists will have discovered by then a fatal flaw in their models that will explain all of it, and instead of man causing warming, it will be man causing cooling, and the sky will fall if the United States Nations and the United States in particular does not act quickly. It is all so predictable.

really okie? Do you know what the Maunder Minimum is? Rolling Eyes

No, professor, I wouldn't have a clue, and I am absolutely sure it would have nothing to do with earth's climate. The climate of the earth is entirely due to CO2 emissions from the machines and industrial facilities built by mankind.

Your strawman okie.. No one has ever claimed that.


Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 05:55 pm
Quote:

http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/about/position/globalwarming.jsp
Carbon Dioxide and Global Warming
Where We Stand on the Issue


C. D. Idso and K. E. Idso
Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is little doubt the air's CO2 concentration has risen significantly since the inception of the Industrial Revolution; and there are few who do not attribute the CO2 increase to the increase in humanity's use of fossil fuels. There is also little doubt the earth has warmed slightly over the same period; but there is no compelling reason to believe that the rise in temperature was caused by the rise in CO2. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that future increases in the air's CO2 content will produce any global warming; for there are numerous problems with the popular hypothesis that links the two phenomena.

A weak short-term correlation between CO2 and temperature proves nothing about causation. Proponents of the notion that increases in the air's CO2 content lead to global warming point to the past century's weak correlation between atmospheric CO2 concentration and global air temperature as proof of their contention. However, they typically gloss over the fact that correlation does not imply causation, and that a hundred years is not enough time to establish the validity of such a relationship when it comes to earth's temperature history.

The observation that two things have risen together for a period of time says nothing about one trend being the cause of the other. To establish a causal relationship it must be demonstrated that the presumed cause precedes the presumed effect. Furthermore, this relationship should be demonstrable over several cycles of increases and decreases in both parameters. And even when these criteria are met, as in the case of solar/climate relationships, many people are unwilling to acknowledge that variations in the presumed cause truly produced the observed analogous variations in the presumed effect.

In thus considering the seven greatest temperature transitions of the past half-million years - three glacial terminations and four glacial inceptions - we note that increases and decreases in atmospheric CO2 concentration not only did not precede the changes in air temperature, they followed them, and by hundreds to thousands of years! There were also long periods of time when atmospheric CO2 remained unchanged, while air temperature dropped, as well as times when the air's CO2 content dropped, while air temperature remained unchanged or actually rose. Hence, the climate history of the past half-million years provides absolutely no evidence to suggest that the ongoing rise in the air's CO2 concentration will lead to significant global warming.

Strong negative climatic feedbacks prohibit catastrophic warming. Strong negative feedbacks play major roles in earth's climate system. If they did not, no life would exist on the planet, for some perturbation would long ago have sent the world careening into a state of cosmic cold or horrendous heat; and we know from the fossil record that neither of these extremes has ever occurred, even over billions of years, and in spite of a large increase in the luminosity of the sun throughout geologic time.

Consider, in this regard, the water vapor that would be added to the atmosphere by enhanced evaporation in a warmer world. The extra moisture would likely lead to the production of more and higher-water-content clouds, both of which consequences would tend to cool the planet by reflecting more solar radiation back to space.

A warmer world would also mean a warmer ocean, which would likely lead to an increase in the productivity of marine algae or phytoplankton. This phenomenon, in turn, would enhance the biotic production of certain sulfur-based substances that diffuse into the air, where they are oxidized and converted into particles that function as cloud condensation nuclei. The resulting increase in the number of cloud-forming particles would thus produce more and smaller cloud droplets, which are more reflective of incoming solar radiation; and this phenomenon would also tend to cool the planet.

All of these warming-induced cloud-related cooling effects are very powerful. It has been shown, for example, that the warming predicted to result from a doubling of the air's CO2 content may be totally countered by: (1) a mere 1% increase in the reflectivity of the planet, or (2) a 10% increase in the amount of the world's low-level clouds, or (3) a 15 to 20% reduction in the mean droplet radius of earth's boundary-layer clouds, or (4) a 20 to 25% increase in cloud liquid water content. In addition, it has been demonstrated that the warming-induced production of high-level clouds over the equatorial oceans almost totally nullifies that region's powerful water vapor greenhouse effect, which supplies much of the temperature increase in the CO2-induced global warming scenario.

Most of these important negative feedbacks are not adequately represented in state-of-the-art climate models. What is more, many related (and totally ignored!) phenomena are set in motion when the land surfaces of the globe warm. In response to the increase in temperature between 25°N latitude and the equator, for example, the soil-to-air flux of various sulfur gases rises by a factor of 25, as a consequence of warmth-induced increases in soil microbial activity; and this phenomenon can lead to the production of more cloud condensation nuclei just as biological processes over the sea do. Clearly, therefore, any number of combinations of these several negative feedbacks could easily thwart the impetus for warming provided by future increases in the air's CO2 content.

Growth-enhancing effects of CO2 create an impetus for cooling. Carbon dioxide is a powerful aerial fertilizer, directly enhancing the growth of almost all terrestrial plants and many aquatic plants as its atmospheric concentration rises. And just as increased algal productivity at sea increases the emission of sulfur gases to the atmosphere, ultimately leading to more and brighter clouds over the world's oceans, so too do CO2-induced increases in terrestrial plant productivity lead to enhanced emissions of various sulfur gases over land, where they likewise ultimately cool the planet. In addition, many non-sulfur-based biogenic materials of the terrestrial environment play major roles as water- and ice-nucleating aerosols; and the airborne presence of these materials should also be enhanced by rising levels of atmospheric CO2. Hence, it is possible that incorporation of this multifaceted CO2-induced cooling effect into the suite of equations that comprise the current generation of global climate models might actually tip the climatic scales in favor of global cooling in the face of continued growth of anthropogenic CO2 emissions.

There is no evidence for warming-induced increases in extreme weather. Proponents of the CO2-induced global warming hypothesis often predict that extreme weather events such as droughts, floods, and hurricanes will become more numerous and/or extreme in a warmer world; however, there is no evidence to support this claim. In fact, many studies have revealed that the numbers and intensities of extreme weather events have remained relatively constant over the last century of modest global warming or have actually declined. Costs of damages from these phenomena, however, have risen dramatically; but this phenomenon has been demonstrated to be the result of evolving societal, demographic and economic factors.

Elevated levels of atmospheric CO2 are a boon to the biosphere. In lieu of global warming, a little of which would in all probability be good for the planet, where do the above considerations leave us? Simply with the biospheric benefits that come from the aerial fertilization effect of atmospheric CO2 enrichment: enhanced plant growth, increased plant water use efficiency, greater food production for both people and animals, plus a host of other biological benefits too numerous to describe in this short statement.

And these benefits are not mere predictions. They are real. Already, in fact, they are evident in long-term tree-ring records, which reveal a history of increasing forest growth rates that have closely paralleled the progression of the Industrial Revolution. They can also be seen in the slow but inexorable spreading of woody plants into areas where only grasses grew before. In fact, the atmosphere itself bears witness to the increasing prowess of the entire biosphere in the yearly expanding amplitude of the its seasonal CO2 cycle. This oscillatory "breath of the biosphere" - its inhalation of CO2, produced by spring and summer terrestrial plant growth, and its exhalation of CO2, produced by fall and winter biomass decomposition - has been documented to be growing greater and greater each year in response to the ever-increasing growth stimulation provided by the ongoing rise in the air's CO2 content.

Atmospheric CO2 enrichment brings growth and prosperity to man and nature alike. This, then, is what we truly believe will be the result of the ongoing rise in the air's CO2 content: a reinvigorated biosphere characteristic of those prior periods of earth's history when the air's CO2 concentration was much higher than it is today, coupled with a climate not much different from that of the present. Are we right? Only time will tell. But one thing is certain now: there is much more real-world evidence for the encouraging scenario we paint here than for the doom-and-gloom predictions of apocalypse that are preached by those who blindly follow the manifestly less-than-adequate prognostications of imperfect climate models.

Our policy prescription relative to anthropogenic CO2 emissions is thus to leave well enough alone and let nature and humanity take their inextricably intertwined course. All indications are that both will be well served by the ongoing rise in atmospheric CO2.

Supporting references. This brief was written in 1998. References to the voluminous scientific literature that supports the many factual statements of this position paper may be found on our website - www.co2science.org - which we update weekly.
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 08:46 pm
One of the problems with using ten-year-old articles, particularly one from well-known cranks like the Idsos, with no credentials in the field of climate research, is that it's really outdated--knowledge of the mechanics of climate have grown exponentially in the last decade. So even if you CAPITALIZE EVERYTHING AND TYPE IT REALLY BIG, it's still bull.

Just to take a couple examples, plants grow more with increasing CO2, but only up to a point. Too much CO2 and they develop what botanists describe as fatigue--they cease to flourish. And for a lot of species that point seems very close to the present concentration in the atmosphere. The Idsos' contention that there's only going to be increasing growth is just plain wrong.

Woody plants don't necessarily replace grasses--the succession depends on the kinds of plants and local conditions. For example, the Amazon rain forest is being deforested at an alarming rate. This contributes to global warming in several ways: burning the trees releases stored CO2, and the bare or farmed ground has a higher albedo, so less energy is reflected back and more is stored in the ground, which leads to warming. And paradoxically, while the rainforests are extremely verdant, literally jungles, the soil beneath them is extremely mineral- and organic-poor, so that within a couple years it's no longer worth tilling. And the forest doesn't return--it reverts to savanna and stays that way.

Further their whole cloud argument was later reworked by Richard Lindzen, another notorious crank, tho with credentials, and one that is pretty much avoided by the rest of the MIT faculty, who disagree with him, into his so-called "iris hypothesis" (which was pretty thoroughly discussed several hundred pages ago in this thread). The only problem with his proposed relation between clouds and warming, and cloud formation as a feedback process, is that it doesn't work. It's been tested several times, and the reult of the research was that, instead of having a rather large negative value (i.e. acting as a counterbalance to warming), it showed a small positive value (i.e. cloud formation increased warming). Not only was his proposed amount of effect wrong, it didn't even have the right sign.

Aand further, better research, ice cores among them, show that their so-called lag between post ice age temps and CO2 just isn't there.

Don't rely on the Idsos.
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Feb, 2008 09:04 pm
Oh, and one more point, ican. The Idsos also are wrong about tropical storms. Shows what happens when you rely on your interpretation of what's going on before eight of the ten hottest years on record. The research shows that tropical storm intensity is increasing. Increasing numbers probably takes more energy input than the oceans have yet received, but some storm experts suggest that that may be happening too, tho the evidence isn't conclusive. Kerry Emmanuel, incidentally a colleage of Lindzen's at MIT, and formerly an agnostic about climate change's effect on hurricane intensity, is now firmly in the camp of those who see increasing intensity.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 07:23 pm
okie wrote:
parados wrote:
okie wrote:
parados wrote:
okie wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Okay folks, which do you prefer? Cooking? Or Freezing? Looks like it could go either way:

If it begins to go colder, count on it Foxfyre, the chorus of impending doom will be just as loud, if not louder. The U.N. scientists will have discovered by then a fatal flaw in their models that will explain all of it, and instead of man causing warming, it will be man causing cooling, and the sky will fall if the United States Nations and the United States in particular does not act quickly. It is all so predictable.

really okie? Do you know what the Maunder Minimum is? Rolling Eyes

No, professor, I wouldn't have a clue, and I am absolutely sure it would have nothing to do with earth's climate. The climate of the earth is entirely due to CO2 emissions from the machines and industrial facilities built by mankind.

Your strawman okie.. No one has ever claimed that.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Disagree? Care to find a quote from anyone saying that CO2 is ENTIRELY the reason for climate change; that there is no other contributor?. I can't wait.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 09:06 pm
You and I both know that is the impression left us by the media for the last few years. So called scientists may not say that in the fine print, but that is the impression left to the public, and you know it. We have been blitzed by Al Gore, his inconvenient truth, and images of weather extremes in the press every day, all implying it is man caused global warming. I am not so dumb as to agree with your assertion that nobody has ever claimed it to be "entirely" the cause. If the earth does cool in the future, look for more excuses and claims of no responsibility, as the argument shifts. This is typical of pundits and politicians.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 09:56 pm
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:24 pm
ican, there is a known, proven connection between increasing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and increasing temperature. That's basic physics. It's been known for over a century. To pretend they're two unrelated variables that someone has just randomly connected, as you seem to maintain, to the extent that anything you do makes any sense at all, is just stupid. To say that comparing greenhouse gases and temperature is similar to comparing temperature and life expectancy, which are pretty much independent variables, is also dumb. You do know the difference between dependent variables and independent variables, don't you? You do know about laws of physics, don't you? Just show a little sense for once.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2008 01:07 am
okie wrote:
You and I both know that is the impression left us by the media for the last few years. So called scientists may not say that in the fine print, but that is the impression left to the public, and you know it. We have been blitzed by Al Gore, his inconvenient truth, and images of weather extremes in the press every day, all implying it is man caused global warming. I am not so dumb as to agree with your assertion that nobody has ever claimed it to be "entirely" the cause. If the earth does cool in the future, look for more excuses and claims of no responsibility, as the argument shifts. This is typical of pundits and politicians.


So what you are saying is that you can't provide a quote.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2008 03:32 pm
username wrote:
ican, there is a known, proven connection between increasing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and increasing temperature. That's basic physics. It's been known for over a century. To pretend they're two unrelated variables that someone has just randomly connected, as you seem to maintain, to the extent that anything you do makes any sense at all, is just stupid. To say that comparing greenhouse gases and temperature is similar to comparing temperature and life expectancy, which are pretty much independent variables, is also dumb. You do know the difference between dependent variables and independent variables, don't you? You do know about laws of physics, don't you? Just show a little sense for once.

When CO2 in the atmosphere absorbs the sun's infrared radiations, it warms.

When the CO2 in the atmosphere is warmed it warms the atmosphere.

The ocean contains CO2 and H2O among other things.

When some of the CO2 and H2O contained in the ocean evaporates from the ocean, it increases the CO2 in the atmosphere.

When the ocean warms it evaporates CO2 and H2O at an increased rate.

The total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere emitted by humans is estimated to be less than 5% of the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

The earth is and always has been warmed priimarily by the sun.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/2007/ann/global-jan-dec-error-bar-pg.gif
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2008 05:03 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
okie wrote:
You and I both know that is the impression left us by the media for the last few years. So called scientists may not say that in the fine print, but that is the impression left to the public, and you know it. We have been blitzed by Al Gore, his inconvenient truth, and images of weather extremes in the press every day, all implying it is man caused global warming. I am not so dumb as to agree with your assertion that nobody has ever claimed it to be "entirely" the cause. If the earth does cool in the future, look for more excuses and claims of no responsibility, as the argument shifts. This is typical of pundits and politicians.


So what you are saying is that you can't provide a quote.

T
K
O

Do I have to provide a quote of somebody saying the sun came up this morning, for you to see the obvious?
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2008 06:14 pm
If you think it's so obvious, you should have no trouble coming up with a whole string of quotes okie, which I notice you haven't done. When challenged about your whole "back to the caves", Luddite version of what those who recognize the problem supposedly say, you couldn't cite anything. Largely because that's some right-wing fantasy, Rush Limbaugh projection. I've seen Al Gore. He doesn't say that. Not even remotely. Have you? Your rhetoric really is absurd.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2008 06:33 pm
username wrote:
If you think it's so obvious, you should have no trouble coming up with a whole string of quotes okie, which I notice you haven't done. When challenged about your whole "back to the caves", Luddite version of what those who recognize the problem supposedly say, you couldn't cite anything. Largely because that's some right-wing fantasy, Rush Limbaugh projection. I've seen Al Gore. He doesn't say that. Not even remotely. Have you? Your rhetoric really is absurd.


No but Al Gore, like most humans on Earth, does use intentionally absurd exaggerations to make a point. All but the most extreme among us allow people to do that without badgering them to prove whatever they used to exaggerate.

The point being made, just in case you missed it, is that it would bust us back to a virtually nonindustrialized society to meet the goals the environmental gurus are saying is necessary to 'save the world'. Nobody in the pro-AGW camp seems to want to discuss that, however. We get all these great sounding numbers that if we would just do THAT we would save the world from THIS much CO2 pollution, etc. etc. But when you look at in the overall big picture, it will be about as effective as my cat peeing on a forest fire. (Pssst, the cat peeing metaphor is an intentionally absurd exaggeration.)

And to emphasize the absurdity, you don't see Al Gore or any of the other bigwig environmental gurus making any personal sacrifice of any kind to 'save the world.' They aren't downsizing their houses or cars or private airplanes. To me, this strongly suggests that even they, deep down, don't believe their own hype.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2008 07:09 pm
Quote:
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Feb, 2008 07:28 pm
Fox, That whole "it would virtually bust us back to a nonindustrialized"(and then I'm not sure what else you said because my screen isn't scrolling right) is really another right wing fantasy, and a W. Bush fantasy (the two do tend to be synonymous). The IPCC provided a graphic example with their most recent assessment report, which was:

If the world does none of the mitigation the IPCC recommends, it wil reach a certain point of development in March, 2050. If it instead does everything the IPCC recommends to mitigate the effects of the inevitable warming, reaching that same stage of development will be delayed all the way until August, 2050. Hardly destroying industrial civilization.

I take very lightly the whines of big business it will be destroyed. I remember the American auto industry whining pollution controls, safety regulations and CAFE standards would bankrupt them. They kept building SUVs. The Japanese automakers looked at what the world was going to be like. They knew oil prices would skyrocket (tho no one thought it was going to be bcause George Bush's wars upset any sense of confidence in the market). They didn't bitch and whine. They did the research. They built better cars, safer cars, more reliable cars, for less money. Now a lot of their cars actually already meet CAFE standards not going into effect until 2020. The people who adapt survive and prosper. However they may not be American, if Americans keep their heads in the sand. If GM had had any sense, they'd be getting the coin today, not Toyota. Pollution controls and mileage standards didn't bankrupt the industry as a whole, and our cars today are light years better because of them.

Those who predict economic disaster if we work to counteract global warming are similarly misinformed Cassandras.

And I might add the IPCC's figures are just mitigation versus non-mitigation. They don't contain the high costs to the world economy if we do nothing. The US uses something on the order of twice as much energy per dollar of GNP as the rest of the industrialized world. We use about twice as much energy per capita as the rest of the industrialized world. Addressing that disparity, i.e. conservation, would save us huge amounts of money, avoid the necessity for a whole lot of new power plants, cut down our carbon footprint, and cost less, all at the same time. Half the world's population lives within fifty miles of the coastline. At least half the world's infrastructure is also within fifty miles of the coastline. Fifty years from now a lot of that could be underwater, when the Arctic, Antarctic, and Greenland's ice all melt. That will be enormously costly to rebuild and relocate. The list goes on. Somehow George Bush didn't enter those costs in his calculations. That's just a couple of examples. It's not even a scratch in the surface of what we can do to lessen the effects that will benefit us in the near and far term, nor does it even scratch the surface of the huge amounts it'll cost us if we do nothing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2008 08:37 am
username wrote:
Fox, That whole "it would virtually bust us back to a nonindustrialized"(and then I'm not sure what else you said because my screen isn't scrolling right) is really another right wing fantasy, and a W. Bush fantasy (the two do tend to be synonymous). The IPCC provided a graphic example with their most recent assessment report, which was:

If the world does none of the mitigation the IPCC recommends, it wil reach a certain point of development in March, 2050. If it instead does everything the IPCC recommends to mitigate the effects of the inevitable warming, reaching that same stage of development will be delayed all the way until August, 2050. Hardly destroying industrial civilization.

I take very lightly the whines of big business it will be destroyed. I remember the American auto industry whining pollution controls, safety regulations and CAFE standards would bankrupt them. They kept building SUVs. The Japanese automakers looked at what the world was going to be like. They knew oil prices would skyrocket (tho no one thought it was going to be bcause George Bush's wars upset any sense of confidence in the market). They didn't bitch and whine. They did the research. They built better cars, safer cars, more reliable cars, for less money. Now a lot of their cars actually already meet CAFE standards not going into effect until 2020. The people who adapt survive and prosper. However they may not be American, if Americans keep their heads in the sand. If GM had had any sense, they'd be getting the coin today, not Toyota. Pollution controls and mileage standards didn't bankrupt the industry as a whole, and our cars today are light years better because of them.

Those who predict economic disaster if we work to counteract global warming are similarly misinformed Cassandras.

And I might add the IPCC's figures are just mitigation versus non-mitigation. They don't contain the high costs to the world economy if we do nothing. The US uses something on the order of twice as much energy per dollar of GNP as the rest of the industrialized world. We use about twice as much energy per capita as the rest of the industrialized world. Addressing that disparity, i.e. conservation, would save us huge amounts of money, avoid the necessity for a whole lot of new power plants, cut down our carbon footprint, and cost less, all at the same time. Half the world's population lives within fifty miles of the coastline. At least half the world's infrastructure is also within fifty miles of the coastline. Fifty years from now a lot of that could be underwater, when the Arctic, Antarctic, and Greenland's ice all melt. That will be enormously costly to rebuild and relocate. The list goes on. Somehow George Bush didn't enter those costs in his calculations. That's just a couple of examples. It's not even a scratch in the surface of what we can do to lessen the effects that will benefit us in the near and far term, nor does it even scratch the surface of the huge amounts it'll cost us if we do nothing


Well if you had actually read my post--you indicated you did not read all of it--you would have seen that I was not talking about the possible results of continued global warming or what that might mean. I was referring to the futility of the 'recommended remedies' to do anything to reverse a changing climate. Also those who are recommending them are not altering their lifestyles in any way which leaves room to speculate how much they really believe their own hype.

When I see the AGW scientists, Al Gore, IPPC leaders, etc. downsizing their houses and cars, giving up their private jets, and foregoing their limousines in favor of trains or busses, I might think they are genuinely concerned about climate change.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2008 08:51 am
Foxfyre wrote:
When I see the AGW scientists, Al Gore, IPPC leaders, etc. downsizing their houses and cars, giving up their private jets, and foregoing their limousines in favor of trains or busses, I might think they are genuinely concerned about climate change.



How many did you see already, Foxfyre? I'd thaught, some are wonderful examples for 'ecologic architecture', at least, if I believe the architectural litterature and magazines and what I noticed as an ecologic layman.

Oh, IPPC: who would you consider to be the leaders there?

http://i31.tinypic.com/2435abt.jpg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Feb, 2008 09:16 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
When I see the AGW scientists, Al Gore, IPPC leaders, etc. downsizing their houses and cars, giving up their private jets, and foregoing their limousines in favor of trains or busses, I might think they are genuinely concerned about climate change.



How many did you see already, Foxfyre? I'd thaught, some are wonderful examples for 'ecologic architecture', at least, if I believe the architectural litterature and magazines and what I noticed as an ecologic layman.

Oh, IPPC: who would you consider to be the leaders there?

http://i31.tinypic.com/2435abt.jpg


Perhaps you should start with demonstrating what you see, Walter. Meanwhile, here is one example of what I 'see'"

A TALE OF TWO HOUSES
0 Replies
 
 

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