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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 10:20 am
meanwhile looking down the other end of the telescope

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1636919,00.html?gusrc=rss
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 11:21 am
So you are saying, the treaty of Kyoto was invented due to the German unification, JW.

Well, at least that's something more on the plus site.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 03:12 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
So you are saying, the treaty of Kyoto was invented due to the German unification, JW.

Well, at least that's something more on the plus site.


Walter, JW said nothing like that. What she is saying is that all motivations behind Kyoto are not altruistic or purely motivated.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 03:23 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
So you are saying, the treaty of Kyoto was invented due to the German unification, JW.

Well, at least that's something more on the plus site.


Walter, JW said nothing like that. What she is saying is that all motivations behind Kyoto are not altruistic or purely motivated.



But what? Do you think any country signed on to Kyoto with malicious intentions?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 03:36 pm
JustWonders wrote:
Why do you suppose 1990 was selected as the baseline year? All those senators wondered about this, as well.


Uhm.... because when, in 1991, most countries joined an international treaty (the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change), the previous year was choosen as base year? Do you have information that would suggest something different, JW?

(Maybe your senators didn't pay attention....)
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 05:09 pm
Old Europe- You neglected to address my data and rebuttals of your post. I notice you have posted since. I certainly hope that my posts have not overtaxed your ability to rebut.

In which case, my posts stand unrebutted--



And as for username, his meandering replication of Roy Spencer( who ever he is) is unable to match the collective wisdom of the National Academy of Scientists, whose link I have posted.

I am so sorry that this excellent discussion is apparently degenerating instead of addressing the key points which are l. How much global warming is there? 2. Does it make any difference? 3. Does it come from Co2? 4. Has global warming occurred in the past when there was no technology to blame for causing it.?

and, yes, before I depart, I am constrained to add the following---

"Without computer models, there would be no evidence of global warming, no predictions of disaster, no Kyoto. So far, the earth has increased its temperture by just one degree in a century. By simulating the climate on giant, ultra-fast computers, scholars try to find out it will react to each new stimulus--like a doubling of CO2. An ideal computer model, however would have to track FIVE MILLION parameters over the surface of the earth and through the atmosphere, and INCORPORATE ALL OF THE RELEVANT INTERACTIONS AMONG LAND, SEA, AIR, ICE AND VEGETATION. ACCORDING TO ONE RESEARCHER, SUCH A MODEL WOULD DEMAND TEN MILLION MILLION DEGREES OF FREEDOM TO SOLVE. The National Academy of Sciences( see my link) puts it this way.

"Climate models are imperfect. Their simulation skill is limited by UNCERTAINTIES in their formulation, the limited size of their calculations, and the difficulty in interpreting their answers that exhibit almost as much complexity as in nature"


PERHAPS THE LEARNED OLD EUROPE OR THE ERUDITE USERNAME CAN SHOW JUST HOW THE National Academy erred in making the above statement.

If they cannot, it stands.

Cheers- Old Europe and Username!!!!
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 05:28 pm
The problem is that I get bored. I get bored when people, instead of writing intelligent posts, just copy the same verbatim parts - like this

Quote:
"Climate models are imperfect. Their simulation skill is limited by UNCERTAINTIES in their formulation, the limited size of their calculations, and the difficulty in interpreting their answers that exhibit almost as much complexity as in nature"


- in something like every second post.

And I have to admit I find it quite hard to follow your style of posting and answering posts. Have you ever considered using the "quote" function? That would really make it easier to see what part of my answer you didn't like.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 05:49 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
So you are saying, the treaty of Kyoto was invented due to the German unification, JW.

Well, at least that's something more on the plus site.


Walter, JW said nothing like that. What she is saying is that all motivations behind Kyoto are not altruistic or purely motivated.



But what? Do you think any country signed on to Kyoto with malicious intentions?


Malicious, no. Opportunistic? Yes. I mean the U.S. would probably have signed on too if they were not required to do anything or could actually increase their emissions or somebody else was obligated to pay for it.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 05:55 pm
All European nations ratified the protocol. Are you suggesting that they "were not required to do anything or could actually increase their emissions or somebody else was obligated to pay for it"?

If not: Why do you think they joined the treaty?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 06:46 pm
I was not under the impression that the European nations made up even the majority of those who signed Kyoto. And the US is not in Europe.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 06:59 pm
EUROPE RISKS ECONOMIC DAMAGE FROM KYOTO: STUDY

By Stuart PensonMon Nov 7,12:47 AM ET

Europe's push to meet pollution targets agreed under the Kyoto Protocol on climate change could dent its economies and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs by 2010, according to research published on Monday.

Compliance with Kyoto's greenhouse gas reduction targets could hit gross domestic product in Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy as energy bills soar, said pro-business thinktank International Council for Capital Formation (ICCF).

"The findings of our research suggest that an alternative approach (to climate change) is urgently needed for both the developing and developed world," said Margo Thorning, Managing Director of the Brussels-based ICCF.

ICCF predicted the loss of at least 200,000 jobs in each of Italy, Germany, Britain and Spain as governments chase greenhouse gas reduction targets set out under Kyoto, which came into force in February.

Average increases of 26 percent in electricity prices and 41 prices in gas prices by 2010 were also predicted in the ICCF's study.

Germany's gross domestic product (GDP) could be reduced by 0.8 percent from base case levels by 2010, with Spain and Britain suffering reductions of 3.1 percent and 1.1 percent respectively, the ICCF said.

The United States has refused to sign up to Kyoto, saying it could damage the U.S. economy.

Thorning said the ICCF's findings supported recent comments by British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who said last week that the world may need to move away from target-based climate change policies after Kyoto's first phase ends in 2012.

Later this month, United Nations talks on climate change will take place in Montreal, the first formal talks over how to approach the issue after 2012.

"A cooperative global approach to reducing emission growth is more likely to produce real emissions reductions, without damaging economic growth in the EU and elsewhere," said the ICCF's Thorning.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:22 pm
Quote:
A cooperative global approach to reducing emission growth

So this means we have to wait for a democrat in the Whitehouse for change to occur.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:41 pm
Recent evidence from Mars reveals the poles on that planet melting as well. (Google -- Mars warming)

Hopefully one of the first acts of a Democratic president and Democratic Congress (if elected) will be to take a trip to the site to determine how Man has caused this calamity and how much it should cost US taxpayers to fix it.

Can we count on you, Dys, to accompany them? Your country needs your service, sir.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:43 pm
Not being a democrat, I don't think I would be asked.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:45 pm
People here seem to be obsessed with Mars's climate change, while giving a damn about the Earth. Kind of weird.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:56 pm
What would it take to convince you that we do give a damn OE? Sign Kyoto even if we believe it to be a flawed solution? Return to the stone age? Not look at possible other causes for global warming? Accept that you know exactly what is right for us and just fall into line?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 08:03 pm
old europe wrote:
People here seem to be obsessed with Mars's climate change, while giving a damn about the Earth. Kind of weird.


Global warming is supposedly going to raise the average temp of the Earth somewhere between 0.5 - 2.0 degrees over the next 100 years. This is based on projections using temperature readings gathered from the 1880's to the present day.

Let me ask anyone who thinks this is a good way of determining how we will live our lives in the decades ahead:

Can you honestly tell me that temperature readings taken in 1880 and 1890 and 1900 and 1910 and 1920 and 1930 (you get the idea) were measured with the same accuracy as temperature readings taken with sophisticated digital equipment today?

Do you think temp readings 50 or 100 years ago could possibly have been off by a degree or two due to inaccurate instrumentation, also a lack of standardized temp collection procedures, etc ?

If so, the whole idea of these temp readings being the basis for building a case that global warming is occurring must be seriously brought into question, wouldn't you agree?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 08:10 pm
Quote:
dyslexia wrote:
real life wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
A cooperative global approach to reducing emission growth
So this means we have to wait for a democrat in the Whitehouse for change to occur.
Recent evidence from Mars reveals the poles on that planet melting as well. (Google -- Mars warming)

Hopefully one of the first acts of a Democratic president and Democratic Congress (if elected) will be to take a trip to the site to determine how Man has caused this calamity and how much it should cost US taxpayers to fix it.

Can we count on you, Dys, to accompany them? Your country needs your service, sir.

Not being a democrat, I don't think I would be asked.


I'll write a letter of recommendation, if that would help. But your obvious sympathies should speak for themselves. And your experience living in very hot climates should be a big plus, shouldn't it?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 08:12 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
What would it take to convince you that we do give a damn OE? Sign Kyoto even if we believe it to be a flawed solution? Return to the stone age? Not look at possible other causes for global warming? Accept that you know exactly what is right for us and just fall into line?

I think for most of us, in spite of foxfyres "you" generalizations, global warming is not an easy question or answer. I don't know enough to judge the Kyoto one way or another, what I do understand is the basic republican attitude is profit outweighs environment and damn the science. But, alas, I am not a scientist nor do I play one on a2k. Our planet is a complicated orb of balances and counter-balances of which we mere mortals have little understanding but we are capable of learning (I hope) In the meantime, an open mind to awareness could go a long way towards solving many of mankinds' problems. I imagine that there was great resistence to vaccinations to prevent diseases but, in the long run, mankind suffered less because of them.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 08:19 pm
Real life, my friends call me Dys, can you spell Dyslexia?
0 Replies
 
 

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