ican711nm wrote:okie wrote:
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I have been following this argument, but not really knowing where it was going, but ican, what are your qualifications in terms of professional background to make these assertions? And given the conclusion you present, what exactly is the cause of CO2 rising, and when will it plateau out and begin to trend the other way?
Professional background = graduate degrees in engineering and business administration, more than 30 years in computer systems research and development, and more than 20 years in aviation piloting, flight instructing, chartering, and weather forecasting.
I don't know
for certain the answer to your second set of questions, and I believe, neither does anyone else. For example: I don't know whether or not CO2 is actually rising or falling more or less than it has from time to time in past milennia or centuries. Past causes for the releases of CO2 into the atmosphere have been volcanoes, meterorites, earthquakes, fires and other combustions (human and lighting caused), and human and other animal exhalations.
Note: CO2 = Carbon Dioxide molecule(s); H2O = water molecule(s); O2 = Oxygen molecule(s); N2 = Nitrogen molecule(s).
From personal experience, I do know a lot about our atmosphere under various conditions.
(1) In any region of the atmosphere at any given temperature and pressure, the density of molecules whose molecular weight is greater than that of H2O, is strongly dependent on the density of H2O in that region. For example, the density of O2 is
decreased by increases of H2O and is
increased by decreases of H2O.
These O2 variations at various atmospheric pressures and temperatures have been repeatedly demonstrated to me by the lower performance of my aircraft engines--jet, turbine, and piston--in regions of high humidity (i.e., high H2O density), and their higher performance in regions of low humidity (i.e., low H2O density). Probably the densities of CO2 and N2 in the atmosphere are similarly affected by humidity.
(2) At a given altitude and humidity, the density of O2 is decreased when the temperature is increased, causing the performance of my aircraft engines to be reduced.
(3) At any given humidity and temperature, the density of O2 is decreased when increasing altitude, causing the performance of my aircraft engines to be reduced.
(4) Increases in any two out of three, or all three--humidity, temperature and altitude--cause the performance of my engines to be reduced greater amounts.
I conclude that the higher the humidity in a given region of the atmosphere the lower is the density of O2 molecules in that region. So I further conclude the same is true for the density of CO2 (or any of the other heavier molecules like N2) in such a region.
When the earth warms, more H2O is evaporated from surface water into various regions of the atmosphere, thereby decreasing the density of CO2 and O2 in those regions. Furthermore, the greater the humidity in a given region, the greater is the likelihood of precipitation of that H2O, and the CO2 mixed with it, back to the surface. When the density of CO2 in those regions is reduced, the effect of CO2 in those regions on the average temperature of the earth, is reduced. It appears to me that the actual amount of CO2 in the various regions of the atmosphere at any given time of year, is influenced more by the density of H2O in those regions at those times than it is by human caused combustion.
Thanks, ican, I commend you for informative and thought provoking information. I have another question for you.
We know, or at least I read that the moon's average temperature is roughly -23 C I think I read, which compares to Earth at around +16 C. So we have a swing of 39 degrees Centigrade between the average temperatures of the two bodies, Earth with its atmosphere of greenhouse qualities, and the moon with virtually none. Of course, the temperature swings are very drastic from the dark side of the moon to the light side, day and night, so the highs and lows of the moon are far higher and lower than that of the earth.
So my feeble brain says yes, as the so-called greenhouse effect increases in proportion to the makeup of the atmosphere, which is obviously due to alot more than CO2, probably more due to water vapor, the temperature swings from daytime high to nighttime lows should become less, so the highs during the day should be lower and the lows at night should be higher. This of course takes the entire globe as an average and ignores all the regional variational changes. I don't know if you agree with that, but my question is this, and maybe it has been obvious to everybody else, but based on CO2 alone, what increase in greenhouse or atmosphereic quality factor, expressed as a small fraction of a percent, is there and has this been calculated? And of course if it has been calculated, how is it meaningful if the same has not been done or can be done for water vapor, methane, and all the rest?
I realize the people with climate models crank in their variables, but I am trying to understand just how they are doing this, and trying to reduce the concept to something more simple to understand. I am posing this question at the risk of being called an idiot here, but I would anyway. I ask questions of people here that seem to know a clue about what they are talking about, and you seem to be one of those.
