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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 12:52 pm
Oops
Oops, I goofed and posted the Monica Goodling article on the wrong thread.

BBB Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 01:16 pm
I'm actually for nuclear power.

A single coal powerplant puts more radioactive carbon isotopes into the atmospere in a year than a nuclear powerplant exploding every year. As for nuclear waste, there has been some interesting developments in nuclear technology to produce less of it, how to store it, and even in the medical field how to recyle it.

I think that most liberals have the pychological attachment of nuclear power to nuclear weaponry. I am and engineer, and I know many nuclear engineers, it's sad where people get their information.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 03:09 pm
I agree with you there. There are many misconceptions about nuclear power, not the least of which is the relatively small quantity of high level, long-lived radioactive waste that is generated. Most of the spent fuel from nearly 40 years of producing roughly 21% of our total electrical power is still stored in water (and in some cases, newer dry) storage facilities adjacent to the plants themselves.

Statistically the hazard to human health generated by a 1000MW nuclear power plant is a bit less than that presented by a major traffic intersection - and far less than that presented by a coal fired plant. The problem is that hazards unseen spook us far out of proportion to the real danger they present.

I believe a similar phenomenon explains the grip that the AGW fantasy has on people. The human cost associated with the remedies that idiots like Al Gore are advocating, are far more certain and immediate than are the mostly imaginary hazards they are presumed to prevent.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 03:32 pm
georgeob1 wrote:

Statistically the hazard to human health generated by a 1000MW nuclear power plant is a bit less than that presented by a major traffic intersection - and far less than that presented by a coal fired plant. The problem is that hazards unseen spook us far out of proportion to the real danger they present.


You are certainly correct.

And 20 years after the Chernobyl disaster we can eat nearly everything from everywhere now without any danger. (Only a few mushrooms from some countries should be avoided.)
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 03:50 pm
THE CHERNOBYL DISASTER
--------------------------------

Quote:
The now-independent countries of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus have been burdened with the continuing and substantial decontamination and health care costs of the Chernobyl accident. It is difficult to tally accurately the number of deaths caused by the events at Chernobyl, as the Soviet-era cover-up made it difficult to track down victims. Lists were incomplete, and Soviet authorities later forbade doctors to cite "radiation" on death certificates. Most of the expected long-term fatalities, especially those from cancer, have not yet actually occurred, and will be difficult or even impossible to attribute specifically to the accident.

Estimates and figures vary widely. The 2005 report prepared by the Chernobyl Forum, led by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and World Health Organization (WHO), attributed 56 direct deaths (47 accident workers, and nine children with thyroid cancer), and estimated that as many as 9,000 people among the approximately 6.6 million most highly exposed, may die from some form of cancer (one of the induced diseases).


...and more than 300,000 people had to be evacuated or resettled .
and it might be a good idea to remember that there have been been a few "uncomfortable moments" at some nuclear power-station throughout the world .
of course major concerns have also been raised by security experts that are concerned with the (un)ability of nuclear power stations to withstand a terrorist attack .
hbg

link :
...CHERNOBYL DISASTER...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 03:59 pm
.... and this is still on the (English) Vattenfall webside Shocked

Quote:
The Forsmark Power Plant is internationally recognised for its very high availability and low running costs. The conditions for this are skilled staff, a reliable power plant and advanced maintenance work.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 03:59 pm
Mind you now, we dont NEED to explode a nuclear plant every year. Chernobyl certainly illustrates why we must refine the technology, however, when the tides rise, a great deal more than 300,000 will be affected. When our crops are affected, a great deal more to follow.

I see this as a side track in discussion. I only meant to offer up that nuclear power has been demonized, when in truth, it is actually very eco-conscious.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Mar, 2007 05:14 pm
The U.S. Navy has operated 100+ nuclear reactors on ships and submarines for over 40 years without a fatality or major accident attributable to the reactor plant. That is a decidedly better record than that for the conventionally powered ships, oil fired, deisel or gas turbine.

The results of the Chernobyl accident (bad as it was) place it as far less significant than any of dozens of mining accidents that occur throughout the world each and every year.

The graphite moderated Chernobyl reactor was of an early design judged to be too hazardous by all Western nations long before the Chernibyl accident. Only the Russians build them, and the few that remain are being shut down.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 03:51 am
georgeob1 wrote:
....
The results of the Chernobyl accident (bad as it was) place it as far less significant than any of dozens of mining accidents that occur throughout the world each and every year....
Sorry George, cant let you get away with that. There are various estimates for the Chernobyl death toll but none less than a few thousand. This is what Greenpeace says

Quote:



Plus they had to abandon a city.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 05:13 am
Somebody, likely foxfyre or minitax, will post this piece from the Weekly Standard, so let's see who the author is...

Quote:
The Global Warming
Industrial Complex
There are a lot of jobs riding on global warming.
by Joseph Loconte
03/28/2007 12:00:00 AM

London
TO DEVOTED OPPONENTS of global warming, it must have seemed like the makings of a perfect storm: Al Gore pocketed an Oscar for his doomsday climate documentary, An Inconvenient Truth. The International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) issued a report with dire warnings about man-made carbon dioxide emissions. British Secretary of State for the Environment, David Milibrand, introduced the first-ever climate change bill in the House of Commons. Even President George W. Bush offered conciliatory talk about the importance of reducing carbon pollutants.

But then an unwelcome squall appeared on the horizon: The documentary film The Great Global Warming Swindle aired earlier this month...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/464shojj.asp

Quote:
Joseph Loconte was the William E. Simon Fellow in Religion and a Free Society at the Heritage Foundation, where he examined the role of religious belief in strengthening democracy and reforming civil society.

Mr. Loconte previously served as deputy editor of Policy Review, where he wrote widely about religion and politics. He is especially interested in new models for church-state partnerships, efforts to protect religious liberty at home and abroad, international human rights, just war theory, and the relationship of Islam to democratic freedoms.

http://www.heritage.org/about/staff/JoeLoconte.cfm
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 09:46 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
There are various estimates for the Chernobyl death toll but none less than a few thousand. This is what Greenpeace says

Quote:
could top a quarter of a million cancer cases and nearly 100,000 fatal cancers.
There are many sources but incidentally (sort of), you feel obliged to cite Greenpeace which uses its traditional scare tactics with "could", "would", "may" sentences. You must be someone who asks a butcher if fish is good for cuisine, aren't you :wink:

And you said no estimates of death toll fewer than thousands exists, which is clearly misleading. The WHO has released a comprehensive report lasting more than 5 years late last year, made by a panel of medicine and radioprotection specialists which states a death number attributed to Tchernobyl much lower than 1 thousand.
To put this in perspective, coal causes more than 20 thousands direct deaths just in China EVERY YEAR, not counting pollution, respiratory and cancer problems. Just in France, we have more than 5 thousands road accident deaths each year and tens of thousands of serious injuries.
If we consider nuclear energy as a progress, it is certainly the surest progress we ever made.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 10:21 am
minitax wrote :

Quote:
Just in France, we have more than 5 thousands road accident deaths each year and tens of thousands of serious injuries.


does that have any relation from dangers from malfunctioning nuclear plants ?

just last night i listened to one of the researchers/scientists from the department of mining at queen's university (our local university) .
the question was how to store nuclear waste securely over long-time .
one of his concerns is groundwater contamination from waste .
he stated that very few sites are predicted to be free from groundwater for the next 10,000 years - which their research shows as being an accepable period to contain leaching .
one such site are the potash mine cavities in saskatchaewan/canada , but the people of that province have shown little interest in accepting that waste - they are dead set AGAINST it (they are telling ontario to keep it in their own backyard - and i can't blame them , even though i live in ontario) .
hbg
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 10:30 am
You aren't a bit very much cynic today, are you?

And obviously you have a different WHO source than the official (and much discussed) by the WHO in 2005

Quote:
The total number of deaths already attributable to Chernobyl or expected in the future over the lifetime of emergency workers and local residents in the most contaminated areas is estimated to be about 4000. This includes some 50 emergency workers who died of acute radiation syndrome and nine children who died of thyroid cancer, and an estimated total of 3940 deaths from radiation-induced cancer and leukemia among the 200 000 emergency workers from 1986-1987, 116 000 evacuees and 270 000 residents of the most contaminated areas (total about 600 000). These three major cohorts were subjected to higher doses of radiation amongst all the people exposed to Chernobyl radiation.


Could you please provide the link for your source?
I'd really like to read the reasons why their number diminished even more.

Could you give your source for the deahts in China as well?
Neither the official Chinese nor any other source shows such a number.


Like hamburger, I wonder how this is related to accidents in nuclear power plants.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 10:53 am
A University of Alberta school of business study on the mountain pine beetle presents a doomsday scenario of vast tracts of dead forest, falling trees and massive forest-fire hazards:

Link to paper (PDF-data)
Quote:
The mountain pine beetle (Dendroctonus ponderosae) (MPB) is a small insect endemic to forests in Western North America and historically has been the most destructive western bark beetle species (Coulson and Witter, 1984). The MPB and its primary host, the lodgepole pine tree (Pinus contorta), have always co-existed as a natural part of the forest ecosystem. Young, robust pine trees have typically been able to ward off the attacks of the pine beetle, utilizing natural defense mechanisms. Traditionally the MPB only successfully attacked large, over mature and stressed lodgepole pine trees contributing to the natural process of succession in forested landscapes. Winter temperatures below negative 35 - 40° Celsius act as one of the primary natural population controls for the MPB. The process of global warming has reduced the regularity of these extreme cold climatic events, resulting in an explosion in the population of the MPB within the interior of British Columbia.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 11:47 am
Walter,

Such statistics can be very misleading -- particularly when you encounter phrases such as, "... deaths already attributable to Chernobyl or expected in the future over the lifetime of emergency workers and local residents in the most contaminated areas is estimated to be about 4000."

We have very little comparative data to go on. For example, while there are available statistics on the rate of mortality due to respiratory disease; and, as well, data estimating the relative contribution of emissions from coal fired powerplants to it; there is no readily available data telling us how many people have died due to the chemical, particulate, or radiological exposure associated with the burning of coal over the recent past and - most significantly - the number living today who will likely one day die as a partial result of it. One could construct such estimates for coal burning just as readily as for nuclear disasters, but the fact is that people have long ago stopped worrying much about this aspect of electrical power production. Greenpeace doesn't do propaganda about coal, cars, marijuana, and many other things that are dangerous to humans.

It is an interesting and significant fact that the radiological exposure of Americans due to the burning of coal to produce about 50% of our electrical power far exceeds that resulting from the production of 21% of our electrical power in nuclear plants. Worse, the airborne radioactive isotopes released in coal combustion have a more efficient biological pathway for human injury than most emissions associated with nuclear power.

Minitax made the excellent point that automobile accidents kill far more people than Chernobyl in each and every major country in the Western world (and Russia) -- every year -- year after year --- and that there are many other like situations, all of which get far less attention than the hysteria over nuclear power.

It is very odd that dangers unseen and far from the reality of our daily lives, particularly ones originating from things we don't understand -- excite our imaginations far more than much worse and more certain realities that we live with every day. The hazards of nuclear power and those of Global Warming are perhaps the most prominent examples. However these are problems originating from human psychology, not an objective analysis of the real relative risks.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 12:14 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Minitax made the excellent point that automobile accidents kill far more people than Chernobyl in each and every major country in the Western world (and Russia) -- every year -- year after year --- and that there are many other like situations, all of which get far less attention than the hysteria over nuclear power.


And even more people are killed in houshold accidents.

minitax made up some points .... and numbers.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 01:33 pm
hamburger wrote:
...the question was how to store nuclear waste securely over long-time .
one of his concerns is groundwater contamination from waste .
he stated that very few sites are predicted to be free from groundwater for the next 10,000 years - which their research shows as being an accepable period to contain leaching .
one such site are the potash mine cavities in saskatchaewan/canada , but the people of that province have shown little interest in accepting that waste - they are dead set AGAINST it (they are telling ontario to keep it in their own backyard - and i can't blame them , even though i live in ontario) .
hbg


Perhaps you and others in Ontario could object to the airborne chemical and particulate contamination that the prevailing Westerly winds bring you from gas and coal fired powerplants in Saskatchewan, Alberta, and BC.

There are many sites free of the likelihood of groundwater contamination in the intermountain region of North America. Yucca Nountain in Nevada is one. However that doesn't stop the loonies from opposing the opening of that site on which the government (and the people) of this country have invested billions.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 03:23 pm
miniTAX wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
There are various estimates for the Chernobyl death toll but none less than a few thousand. This is what Greenpeace says

Quote:
could top a quarter of a million cancer cases and nearly 100,000 fatal cancers.
There are many sources but incidentally (sort of), you feel obliged to cite Greenpeace which uses its traditional scare tactics with "could", "would", "may" sentences. You must be someone who asks a butcher if fish is good for cuisine, aren't you :wink:

And you said no estimates of death toll fewer than thousands exists, which is clearly misleading. The WHO has released a comprehensive report lasting more than 5 years late last year, made by a panel of medicine and radioprotection specialists which states a death number attributed to Tchernobyl much lower than 1 thousand.
To put this in perspective, coal causes more than 20 thousands direct deaths just in China EVERY YEAR, not counting pollution, respiratory and cancer problems. Just in France, we have more than 5 thousands road accident deaths each year and tens of thousands of serious injuries.
If we consider nuclear energy as a progress, it is certainly the surest progress we ever made.
I dont have a problem with nuclear energy, just misleading comparisons between a coal mine accident and Chernobyl.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 04:23 pm
george wrote :

Quote:
Perhaps you and others in Ontario could object to the airborne chemical and particulate contamination that the prevailing Westerly winds bring you from gas and coal fired powerplants in Saskatchewan, Alberta, and BC.


the ontario government is indeed objecting to airborne chemical and particulate contamination ... however the objection is particularly strong against the dirt blowing in from OHIO and KENTUCKY .
there may indeed be some dirt coming from the west but most is coming from ohio and kentucky ... sorry , george .
hbg

see also link for full report :
Quote:


link :
...ONTARIO PROTESTS U.S. POLLUTION ...
0 Replies
 
miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Mar, 2007 04:31 pm
hamburger wrote:
minitax wrote :

Quote:
Just in France, we have more than 5 thousands road accident deaths each year and tens of thousands of serious injuries.


does that have any relation from dangers from malfunctioning nuclear plants ?
I was talking about the risk of death in any human activity, be it in travel, transportation, food, energy production under its different forms,etc , the biggest risk of all being life which provokes a 100% risk of death :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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