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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:27 am
okie wrote:
Another factor, of many, that is poorly understood that the "sky is falling crowd" blithely ignores. They choose instead to apparently believe CO2 is the only non-static factor that is happening.


Are you saying that the precession of the equinoxes (if it is that what Foxfyre meant) is poorly understood?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:31 am
okie wrote:
Another factor, of many, that is poorly understood that the "sky is falling crowd" blithely ignores.


I like your labels, okie. Do we get to call you the "nothing to see here, everything's fine crowd"?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:33 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
okie wrote:
Another factor, of many, that is poorly understood that the "sky is falling crowd" blithely ignores. They choose instead to apparently believe CO2 is the only non-static factor that is happening.


Are you saying that the precession of the equinoxes (if it is that what Foxfyre meant) is poorly understood?


If Okie won't say it, I'll say it. I think few people are aware of this particular phenomenon and I think many who are aware of it don't understand it, and some who do understand it don't fully understand it. The point being made however, like solar activity, it is one of those possible variables that gets very little notice or reference from the from the AGW crowd.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:40 am
old europe wrote:
okie wrote:
Another factor, of many, that is poorly understood that the "sky is falling crowd" blithely ignores.


I like your labels, okie. Do we get to call you the "nothing to see here, everything's fine crowd"?

We've always had potential problems confronting us, and some that appear on the horizon. Some turn out to be more important than first thought, and many turn out to be inconsequential or relatively unimportant. I am all for monitoring and studying climate, but I am for balanced and sound science, which is not done in politically charged situations, as often this leads to very bad policy. The law of unintended consequences tend to kick into high gear in those situations. In other words, radiation therapy is not appropriate for what was thought by some to be lung cancer but turned out to be a cold.

In decision making and problem solving, you must first find out for sure what the problem is, or if even a problem exists, in order to prescribe the correct solution.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:43 am
Perhaps the leading theories on global warming are wrong. However, it seems to me that we cannot afford to gamble that they are. Moreover, it would probably benefit us, even economically, were we to limit carbon emissions, etc.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:43 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I think few people are aware of this particular phenomenon and I think many who are aware of it don't understand it, and some who do understand it don't fully understand it. The point being made however, like solar activity, it is one of those possible variables that gets very little notice or reference from the from the AGW crowd.


The first time I heard about that was at school, in geography, at the age of 13 or maybe 14. And then later at school again, when I was 17 or 18.

I admit, however, that besides that I leanrt about it for getting some good marks, I really didn't understand it until I was as a conscript with the navy's academy.

I agree that it gets little notice or reference with global warming.
It's not a topic there.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:44 am
Very diplomatic (and accurate) response to somebody who has little to say other than ad hominems directed to people he disagrees with, Okie Smile
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:44 am
okie wrote:
In decision making and problem solving, you must first find out for sure what the problem is, or if even a problem exists, in order to prescribe the correct solution.


I would not disagree with that. I hope you hold the same view regarding the WMD issue and the invasion of Iraq.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:53 am
Advocate wrote:
Perhaps the leading theories on global warming are wrong. However, it seems to me that we cannot afford to gamble that they are. Moreover, it would probably benefit us, even economically, were we to limit carbon emissions, etc.


Nobody is seriously questioning global warming at this time as nobody thinks the Earth won't be warming or cooling at any give time. It isn't as if we can just set a thermostat and leave it. But some of us do question the 'sky is falling' scaremongering that is being put out there by such as Al Gore and his ilk. And we do resist making major life changes and/or wrecking havoc on national economies on theories based on what may be very bad science.

The world has done more than it has ever done in reducing greenhouse gasses and (in prior decades) those things that are suspected of causing acid rain, thinning of the ozone, etc. etc. etc. and yet the more we do, the more problem there seems to be. This has to at least open the door to consider whether humankind has any significant measurable effect on the overall climate at all or at least it should keep us researching what, if anything, we do have the power to do. It is ludicrous for everybody to go off half cocked to solve a problem when we don't even know for sure whether there is one and/or whether our solutions will have any effect.

If I find those big gun scientists, movie stars, and people like Al Gore building a spaceship to escape or otherwise doing real, significant action and/or significantly changing their own lifestyles in any serious way, or even advocating more than politically correct mandates, I'll believe they do really believe in AGW as a serious, life threatening problem. Until then, I have to leave room to think there is a strong possibility that it is as much hype as science driving this whole opera.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 11:21 am
Foxfyre wrote:
And we do resist making major life changes and/or wrecking havoc on national economies on theories based on what may be very bad science.


The problem here might be who - and by what means - 'bad sciences' is judged to be bad science.

But I don't doubt that you are correct and I really shouldn't bother about that.
Which I personally don't (a lot at least); I'm quite content with the changes in my life that came along with living more responsible of what we got ans want to give later generations. (Something, I've learnt going to church, btw. :wink: )

I agree furtheron that it is not bad to look at some things which are presented as the last word on a subject: there's been bad research about WMD's in Iraq and North Korea's nuclear weapons - why not with climate change?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 11:28 am
I immodestly pride myself and my family on being more environmentally conscious and responsible than most Walter. I am really big on clean air, water, soil, and food supply and I love almost all living things. We buy biodegradable when we can, recycle what we can, conserve when we can, and are careful stewards of the beauty God has provided for us.

But I also pride myself on not being a sucker for every fad that comes around the pike too. I am not at all convinced that this whole AGW thing is not one of those. And it has nothing to do with a gazillion other unrelated things you might want to throw into that pot.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 11:50 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I immodestly pride myself and my family on being more environmentally conscious and responsible than most Walter. I am really big on clean air, water, soil, and food supply and I love almost all living things. We buy biodegradable when we can, recycle what we can, conserve when we can, and are careful stewards of the beauty God has provided for us.

But I also pride myself on not being a sucker for every fad that comes around the pike too. I am not at all convinced that this whole AGW thing is not one of those. And it has nothing to do with a gazillion other unrelated things you might want to throw into that pot.


The response to AGW has the added benefit of making the air and water cleaner for everyone.

You know that I'm not AGW alarmist, but I don't understand how people could be against cleaner air and water...

Cycloptichorn
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 01:18 pm
I can't remember ever being opposed to reasonable proposals/mandates to clean up the air, water, soil, etc. and I've done my share of reporting offenders. (I was once in a line of work in which I saw some of that.)

But I don't believe for a minute that the pro-AGW group is in the business of improving or protecting the environment. There are no doubt some true believers out there, but just based on their behavior alone, I am becoming more convinced that most are in the business of lining their own pockets and/or enhancing their power and/or prestige more than being concerned about any other thing.
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miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 03:48 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The response to AGW has the added benefit of making the air and water cleaner for everyone.
The response to AGW (assuming the "A" in GW is really what it is we are made to believe) is diverting huge amounts of public & private money, R&D efforts which otherwise would have been much more usefull to provide basic sanitation, medicine and CLEAN water to the huddle but distant masses still living in abject poverty NOW !

The response to AGW is no more than trying to cool your garden to get cool instead of taking a cool shower : a horribly wasteful hubris. The motives of it is not the sake of Gaia but money, power and influence based on lies.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 03:51 pm
miniTAX wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The response to AGW has the added benefit of making the air and water cleaner for everyone.
The response to AGW (assuming the "A" in GW is really what it is we are made to believe) is diverting huge amounts of public & private money, R&D efforts which otherwise would have been much more usefull to provide basic sanitation, medicine and CLEAN water to the huddle but distant masses still living in abject poverty NOW !

The response to AGW is no more than trying to cool your garden to get cool instead of taking a cool shower : a horribly wasteful hubris. The motives of it is not the sake of Gaia but money, power and influence based on lies.


That's A response to AGW, naturally taken to the extreme.

Do you actually have any other purpose here besides arguing against those who believe that we are affecting the environment negatively with our actions?

Cycloptichorn
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miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 03:55 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Do you actually have any other purpose here besides arguing against those who believe that we are affecting the environment negatively with our actions?
What do you mean by "purpose", Cycloptichorn ?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:03 pm
miniTAX wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Do you actually have any other purpose here besides arguing against those who believe that we are affecting the environment negatively with our actions?
What do you mean by "purpose", Cycloptichorn ?


I refer to the standard definition of 'purpose.'

Cycloptichorn
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miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:07 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I refer to the standard definition of 'purpose.'

Cycloptichorn

Do you have any purpose to contend I'm "arguing against those who believe that we are affecting the environment negatively with our actions" whereas I'm not ?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:10 pm
miniTAX wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I refer to the standard definition of 'purpose.'

Cycloptichorn

Do you have any purpose to contend I'm "arguing against those who believe that we are affecting the environment negatively with our actions" whereas I'm not ?


Don't answer questions with questions, plz. After you answer the original question, I'd be more than happy to answer yours.

Cycloptichorn
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miniTAX
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Do you actually have any other purpose here besides arguing against those who believe that we are affecting the environment negatively with our actions?
No. Now, your answer please. http://images.forum-auto.com/icones/smilies/cubitus.gif
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