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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Sep, 2005 09:20 am
Quote:
Blathers-Who the hell was that John Jacob Niles? He only sang a bit of something like Don't Bother Me No More and he blew everybody away
here. It's obviously the start point for It An't Me Babe and the title line is in an '84 Euro Tour version of Simple Twist Of Fate.


One of many bits that blew me away...I was entranced and jaw-dropped the full way through (here's a link on the fellow http://www.john-jacob-niles.com/ ). I'd quite forgotten, for example, how stunning Baez's voice was. And that Odetta version of Waterboy!!!! A compelling reason to keep my ticker a'thump for a bit longer is to read the next bit of dylan history and watch the (presumed) Scorses accounting of it (hat is off to Martin for those two hours last night).
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Sep, 2005 10:40 am
blathers (that's your Officer's Mess tag),

I was mesmerised as well.Loved "musical expeditionary".That's my style with literature and I know what I'm looking for.I'll bet Dylan has thousands of hours of film locked away.Just wait till some of the '80s stuff comes out.I've seen a few bits and it is something else.Have you ever seen the '81 Earls's Court Watchtower or the Verona Every Grain Of Sand or the Newcastle '84 I&I.

Didn't he look great though.But that Niles.It was real primitive.

I wouldn't like to live in the US but it sure looks good from a distance.
Shakespeare's in the alley.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Sep, 2005 02:03 pm
The Kyoto Treaty advocates are turning up the heat.

Yesterday, the temp in Austin, Texas hit 108F (42.2C). Bush was vacationing in Washington, DC at the time.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 05:29 am
blathers-

Thanks for the JJ Niles link.Astounding.It shows how little I know.Bob is a one man educational system.We have downed The Maid Freed From The Gallow OK but we can't get anymore yet.We are downing Marlene Dietrich's version of Go 'Way From My Window.Thanks again and take it easy.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 05:41 am
PS

Just heard George Winston play it on the piano.What a beautiful tune that is.Gives you an idea what Proust was on about with the "little phrase".Our civilisation's greatest achievement may turn out to be musical instruments just as the classical age gave us language.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 11:53 am
Arctic ice 'disappearing fast'
By Richard Black
Environment Correspondent, BBC News website



Part of what we're seeing is the increased greenhouse effect; I'd bet the mortgage on it

Mark Serreze, NSIDC
The area covered by sea ice in the Arctic has shrunk for a fourth consecutive year, according to new data released by US scientists.

They say that this month sees the lowest extent of ice cover for more than a century.

The Arctic climate varies naturally, but the researchers conclude that human-induced global warming is at least partially responsible.

They warn the shrinkage could lead to even faster melting in coming years.

"September 2005 will set a new record minimum in the amount of Arctic sea ice cover," said Mark Serreze, of the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC), Boulder, Colorado.

"It's the least sea ice we've seen in the satellite record, and continues a pattern of extreme low extents of sea ice which we've now seen for the last four years," he told BBC News.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 07:14 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Arctic ice 'disappearing fast'
By Richard Black
Environment Correspondent, BBC News website
...
Mark Serreze, NSIDC
The area covered by sea ice in the Arctic has shrunk for a fourth consecutive year, according to new data released by US scientists.

They say that this month sees the lowest extent of ice cover for more than a century.
...


The samething is happening to the ice caps on Mars. Mars's ice cap minimums are shrinking too.

Is there a comon cause for both?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 08:00 pm
Who care one whit about Mars? I live on the planet earth.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 08:04 pm
You do, c.i.

But then, I've often been wondering if ican may be living on Mars....
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 08:24 pm
Okay, beam me up, oe.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2005 11:40 pm
This is Blatham's response to a point made by Thomas in reference to Londborg's published opposition to the conventional environmentalist dogmatists in Europe.

blatham wrote:
You misunderstand. I have neither the time nor the interest to ground myself sufficiently in the mathematics and the sciences necessary to evaluate whether the writer is doing a snowjob on himself or on me, or whether he might be mistaken but with benign intent. I certainly do have an interest in environment/climate matters, but wend my way through by sussing out, so well as I can, what the speaker's interests seem to be. If a group is funded by the energy industry, I am going to trust it exactly like I would trust a group of lung doctors who are being paid by the tobacco industry. Another group of such doctors, working independently at universities around the world, I'll trust rather more.


Nice turns of phrase and refreshing candor. However the thoughts expressed would do a Miedeval monk proud - such slavish acceptance of preferred authority! If I have understood Blatham correctly he prefers to trust the propaganda of single issue interest groups to either thinking for himself or studying the opinions of those who combine scientific understanding, technical competence, and economic interest in specific applications of the issues in question. He has a point - as the overwrought metaphor concerning tobacco purveyors suggests. However does he suppose that the representatives of the environmental establishment are themselves free of the entanglements of related economic interest, persoinal status and ambition?

It is interesting to observe the degree to which the practicioners of correct political thought adopt the same absolute faith in their own evangelists that they ascribe to those of the "religious right' whom they despise so much.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 12:09 am
My "single interest" is in the planet earth.

Heard yesterday on the radio, (information from an American scientific foundation) that soon it will no longer be possible to walk to the North Pole- swimming only.

Interesting times.
Still, the Vikings could cultivate Greenland, way back then.
The climates they are a-changing.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 12:31 am
Nah georgeob - there's plenty of scientific evidence around to convince me that global warming is a problem.

I've no time for evangelism of any sort, I'm satisfied evidence amounting to proof is available. I will take a pragmatic view as an individual voter and look to a pragmatic set of solutions.

I don't want to see dogmatic response from anyone - I don't want to see us don sackcloth and ashes because we dared to have an industrial revolution a few hundred years ago nor do I want to see us collectively close our eyes to the evidence because industries can't adapt to the requirements to protect the Earth.

Damnit I sound like a moderate Very Happy
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 12:32 am
"Walk to the North Pole..." From where? It has never (during the last several milennia) been possible to walk to the North Pole From Europe (except possibly the island of Spitzbergen if you consider that Europe. Even northmost Siberia (Asia) is separated from the polar ice cap by seawater for most of the year.Apparently the spokesman in question is referring to the possibility that warming in the northern Canadian territories will leave year-round ice free areas separating Canada from the Arctic ice cap. This of course has occurred before, waned, and will likely occur again - not such a big deal. . How "soon" is hard to tell. A new "Northwest Passage" might prove beneficial to mankind.
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 12:47 am
True I heard a radio report about the benefit of a freshly opened trade route but I also heard a scientist explaining that all that whiteness at the polar caps allows reflection of sunlight whereas if the north polar cap disappeared it would be replaced with a dark sea which would tend to absorb more heat from the sun.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 01:02 am
georgeob1 wrote:
"Walk to the North Pole..." From where? It has never (during the last several milennia) been possible to walk to the North Pole From Europe (except possibly the island of Spitzbergen if you consider that Europe. Even northmost Siberia (Asia) is separated from the polar ice cap by seawater for most of the year.Apparently the spokesman in question is referring to the possibility that warming in the northern Canadian territories will leave year-round ice free areas separating Canada from the Arctic ice cap. This of course has occurred before, waned, and will likely occur again - not such a big deal. . How "soon" is hard to tell. A new "Northwest Passage" might prove beneficial to mankind.


I don't know, if it was mentioned in that radio broadcast someone could or had ever walked to the North Pole from Europe.
At least, McTag didn't mention that and as far as I know, no-one ever had claimed to have done or to do so.

Quote:
Sept. 28, 2005

Arctic ice cap still shrinking

Experts suggest global warming is likely to blame for summer trend


By ANDREW C. REVKIN
New York Times

WASHINGTON - The floating cap of sea ice on the Arctic Ocean shrank this summer to what is probably its smallest size in at least a century, continuing a trend toward less summer ice, a team of climate experts reported Wednesday.

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That shift is hard to explain without attributing it in part to human-caused global warming, they and other experts on the region said.

The change also appears to be becoming self-sustaining: The increased open water absorbs solar energy that would otherwise be reflected back into space by bright-white ice, said Ted Scambos, a scientist at the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colo., which compiled the data along with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

The data were released on www.nsidc.org, the center's Web site.

The findings are consistent with computer simulations showing that a buildup of greenhouse gases could lead to a profoundly transformed Arctic later this century.

Expanding areas of open water in summer could be a boon to whales and cod stocks, and the ice retreat could create summertime shipping shortcuts between the Atlantic and Pacific.

But a host of troubles lie ahead as well. One of the most important consequences of Arctic warming will be increased flows of meltwater and icebergs from glaciers and ice sheets, with rising sea levels threatening coastal areas.

The North Pole ice cap always grows in winter and shrinks in the summer. The average minimum area from 1979, when precise satellite mapping began, until 2000 was 2.69 million square miles, similar in size to the contiguous United States. The new summer low, measured Sept. 19, was 20 percent below that.

The difference between the average ice area and the area that persisted this summer was about 500,000 square miles, an area about twice the size of Texas, the scientists said.
Source
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 01:53 am
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40852000/gif/_40852796_sea_ice_gra203.gif

Arctic ice 'disappearing quickly'
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:35 am
BBC, in the article satt_fs pointed to, wrote:
An NSIDC analysis of historical records also suggests that ice cover is less this year than during the low periods of the 1930s and 40s.

Or in other words, the size of the arctic ice shell changes periodically over several decades. This means it was inherently misleading of BBC to fit that dashed straight line to its data plot. Consequently, BBC's/NSIDC's extrapolation is worthless: The arctic shelf may be gone in 60 years if the straight line continues -- but there is no straight line to continue in reality.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 02:40 am
A line is a conventional tool for analyzing a trend in statistical data with the Least Squares Method (LSM).
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2005 03:05 am
satt_fs wrote:
A line is a conventional tool for analyzing a trend in statistical data with the Least Square Method (LSM).

Conventional or not: If the trend thus analyzed is not linear but periodical, fitting a straight line to it is inherently meaningless. And the least square method does in no way presuppose that the function fitted to the data be a line. All it does is measure how closely the function fits the data.

***

On re-reading, even the bit about "60 years" turns out to be dubious, judging by the way BBC is reporting it.

BBC wrote:
The current rate of shrinkage they calculate at 8% per decade; at this rate there may be no ice at all during the summer of 2060.

This is an error in elementary arithmetics, no matter how charitably you interpret the quote. If you interpret it to say the cap is shrinking at a rate of eight percent a decade, its half-life will be 90 years, but it will never vanish. If, as their linear fit is suggesting, they are saying the cap is shrinking linearly at eight percentage points per decade, it will vanish, but not in 60 years but in 125. This is not rocket science mathematics they're messing with here. It's the rule of three they have learned in elementary school. I don't know why they're not cross-checking their confident statement against this simple rule, but a good guess is that they found this bit of trivia too good to ruin it with research.
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