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IF A TREE FALLS IN THE FOREST . . .

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Apr, 2003 09:23 pm
Like drums? Wink
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jamespetts
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 04:12 am
The whole old chestnut tree-falling question is really quite a meaningless way to make a point that's wrong anyway.

The question starts "if a tree falls..." and then ends "does it really fall?" That in itself is a logical flaw - if the premise is that a tree falls, the conclusion cannot be that the tree does not fall.

The entire train of thought is flawed.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 06:22 am
"If a tree falls .."
One can imagine it, but until its effects, in the broadest sense, are known to a consciousness, the pseudo event has a sense only in the stochastic (probabilistic) manner.
But if everything is a form of consciousness then stochastic (probabilistic) interpretation reduces to the matter of convenience of explanation.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 09:03 am
jamespetts, you have an excellent point - maybe it just laid down-

BTW, welcome aboard!
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jamespetts
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 09:52 am
Satt: so, in effect what you are saying is that, until somebody knows that a tree has fallen, nobody knows that a tree has fallen? I don't think that there is any more real content from all this that can be extracted from that, is there?
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BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 11:58 am
Another aspect of human arrogance is effective here; the ancient superiority (dominion) over the other participants of the natural world scam, of all organized religions.

If a tree falls in the forest.......
ask any surviving, nearby worm; they'll know about it !!

And they don't really give a damn if we heard it or not !!
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jamespetts
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 12:04 pm
You make a very good point, BoGoWo, but I should take it further and suggest that even your position promotes an unjustified superiority for life. Something exists in that it has a cause and effects, whether those effects be direct perception of living things or otherwise.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 12:07 pm
The worm has won again and has an assured food supply for the next 40 or 50 years; unless, man comes along and steals it's food!
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BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 12:08 pm
I totally agree; Bishop Berkley culls no points from my votes!
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 02:49 pm
jamespetts wrote:
Satt: so, in effect what you are saying is that, until somebody knows that a tree has fallen, nobody knows that a tree has fallen? I don't think that there is any more real content from all this that can be extracted from that, is there?

My point made an implication that everything may be in a consciousness.

And "real content" is not necessary if "fallen tree" is not a real content for any consciousness. But one can imagine the event.
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 08:04 pm
satt_focusable wrote:
My point made an implication that everything may be in a consciousness.

I apologize for the supreme flaws and shameful incorrectness of my previous posts. Your comment here(!) has reminded me of the truth . . .

Many cultures (my own ancestors from Latvia included) believe that trees are, in fact, people. Hence many surnames in my family tree are named after ... trees. My own last name means Cherry Tree. My grandmothers means Small Oak. My cousins have names that harbor Rose Tree, Pines, and Alder. They are planted by happenstance along the meandering creek of time.

It is quite a reassuring belief that I sometimes indulge during long walks through forests, to think we are one with nature, part of the forest, at home with good friends, anywhere on the planet. We are together. I can stop and have a conversation at any time with a relative, a sapling or a snag, get wonderful advice from a Great Role Model, and feel I really belong.

Not so with technology, eh?

I sit by a creek and wonder. When my time comes I have no doubt that I will not crowd into a cemetary, but instead walk off into the forest perhaps 5 miles or 500, and simply rest against a tree. Like a tree, death is a changing not an ending, a contribution to the rich environment that springs forth new life. So I smile.

I do believe trees have conscious thought. They cry, feel anger, outrage, compassion, support, enthusiasm and have all manner of experiences *in their own way*. They recognize their surroundings and respond to thousands of relationships.

Trees hold memories and experiences that span hundreds of years ... such deep wisdom they carry. Such patience and fortitude, always reaching for the sun, always for the sugar in life. They've weathered far more than any human ever will, smelled and tasted with senses the air and elements from thousands of miles away. Such calmness in their uplifting limbs, constantly bringing what is good into the world. Such power in their mild daily persistence.

They've spent an entire lifetime just sitting and appreciating. And breathing! How many monks or gurus have sat as long in perfect meditation?

How fragrant it is to share breath with a tree. Trees support the animals and plants around them any way they possibly can, sharing the earth, water and air so well, that others may live better. They love when creatures rest in their branches, cling to their bank, shelter by their trunk, or feed from their bounty. They take joy in so many things! Ten thousand pine cones with a hundred seeds in each, and still they try, because it only takes one success for all that energy to be worthwhile. And when pushed hard, they bend to their environment and keep holding on.

What wonderful role models!

Growth is why it's called a Grove. The greatest teacher in my life, more than any human, has been the massive Douglas Fir standing in my front yard. Just by standing. Simply standing, growing, and giving. How can any person ever compete with that? It makes me want to sit for a few hours each day so I can live. And firmly hold all the people I can find to love.

So, to say "If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear it..." is clearly false right from the start. There is always someone there to hear it, and the noise is like a sigh.

The tree itself listens, as does it's companions and all the animals and plants nestled nearby, down to the last insect and bacteria in the ground. In the woods, no one and nothing is ever alone.

That's why we call this place Home.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 08:12 pm
Code, Did you see "My Big Fat Greek Wedding?" You'll enjoy it. Wink c.i.
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 10:16 pm
I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive.--Joseph Campbell
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 10:22 pm
joanne i just have to throw this in here:
So cut your hair and never stare
at people who ain't aware that
every morning they wake up
dead
richard farina
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 10:39 pm
Cool dys I went to his web page and yowza what a great writer.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 10:44 pm
joanne he was a really great song writer/singer killed in a motor cycle accident when he was on the road with Bob Dylan. he was married to Joan Baez sister mimi who just died last year. ( i have all his music)
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Apr, 2003 11:23 pm
Wow learning something new every day. I book marked the home page and I am trying to remember why I never knew about this person, hmm.
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jamespetts
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2003 03:21 am
satt_focusable wrote:
jamespetts wrote:
Satt: so, in effect what you are saying is that, until somebody knows that a tree has fallen, nobody knows that a tree has fallen? I don't think that there is any more real content from all this that can be extracted from that, is there?

My point made an implication that everything may be in a consciousness.

And "real content" is not necessary if "fallen tree" is not a real content for any consciousness. But one can imagine the event.


You say that everything "may" be in consciousness, and then continue to your second sentence as if everything were unquestionably in consciousness.

The question which arises from either position is in what sense can consciousness exist if existance requires consciousness?
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2003 04:19 am
jamespetts..
Coexistence.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2003 04:20 am
Or, the existence as a whole.
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