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Imagination v. intelligence

 
 
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2005 09:09 pm
Which is most important for making things happen?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2005 09:11 pm
I vote that it's a draw. Of course, it kind of depends on what it is you are trying to make happen.
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WhoodaThunk
 
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Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2005 09:56 pm
I'll vote for imagination, and I'll give you Jimmy Carter and Chia Pets as Exhibits A & B.
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littlek
 
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Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2005 09:58 pm
You can't get anywhere with either unless you have the other.
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paulaj
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2005 10:03 pm
"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
-Albert Einstein

Albert E. was amazing, he couldn't speak his native language, very well, until he was about 9. His teachers thought he was somewhat retarded, and he was kicked out of high school (for being difficult.) Go figure.
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DrewDad
 
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Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2005 11:17 pm
IMO imagination is a kind of intelligence.

There are many kinds of intelligence, or aptitudes as some have described them.

Quote:
What are aptitudes?

Having an aptitude means that an individual is able to perform some task or activity much faster or more easily than most other individuals. AIMS provides information about the client's specific aptitude pattern (combination of scores) and how it relates to careers the client may be interested in pursuing or a current career. Many parents encourage their children to complete the testing before the student's senior year of high school to promote the planning involved with higher education. AIMS administrators may also use test results to make suggestions about which colleges would be most appropriate for the student considering aptitudes, characteristics, and majors for suggested careers. In the working world, adults need to use their natural abilities in their careers to avoid dissatisfaction or frustration. Aptitudes can be considered pre-talents, abilities waiting to be used. If aptitudes are not trained, honed, and utilized, a person may feel that something is missing, or that they are in the wrong field. On the other hand, careers that demand aptitudes that an individual lacks may lead to frustration. A person may find that the requirements of a position take them much longer or demand more effort from them than from others who possess the natural abilities used in that job.


I had aptitude testing as a senior in high school. It was pretty cool.

http://www.aimstesting.org/
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boomerang
 
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Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 09:53 am
Thank you all for your interesting replies.

Mr. B and I were debating this issue over dinner last night, especially in regard to early testing of children.

I really like that "imagination is a kind of intelligence", DrewDad. I wish I'd had it at my disposal last night!

And I did cite Einstein - and Stephen Hawking - as kids who were thought to be unexceptional, even incapable who were instead the most brilliant minds of their generations.

I have know people of both types: those who posess the technical skills to do something but don't really seem to have a clue on how to apply it to anything beyond the known and predictable, and those who scheme and dream and have great ideas but no knowledge of how to make it work.

It seems to me that imagination is the child of curiosity, and though curiosity you gain the ability to apply the knowledge you acquire in a wider variety of venues.

And while knowledge can also be the child of curiostiy it is often simply rote.
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Vivien
 
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Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 10:29 am
yes, exactly Boomerang

Imagination is crucial for original thought.
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Cyracuz
 
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Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 11:17 am
I don't think we can put intelligence and imagination up agains eachother, because they depend on eachother.
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 12:15 pm
I disagree that imagination and intelligence rely on the other. I think it is rare that they come together but when they do the results are astonishing.

Let me throw a couple of things out:

Savants. (You know, like the Rain Man guy.) They don't posess what we would normally call intelligence but often they are capable of creating art, music, or some mathmatical abilities. Is this from imagination.

I would hazard a guess that many physicians are very intelligent, well educated people but few are imaginitive in the way say.... Flemming noticing that some mold killed bacteria and that observation led to the development of penicillian.

Or when Mendel was dinking around with his pea pods. While he could have never sequenced the genome he could most likely have imagined it.

Hmmm.......

I need to think on this some more.
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paulaj
 
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Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 01:12 pm
Intelligence/knowledge can be measured easier because it has boundaries and limits.

Imagination/creativity has no boundaries.
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Letty
 
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Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 07:33 pm
The final frontier, boomer--the imagination of the human mind. Creativity has never been successfully tested because of the very nature of its illusive quality. I've never been quite certain what intelligence is.
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boomerang
 
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Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 08:30 pm
It really is the final frontier - so unquantifiable.

I was thinking about this today in relation to a stylist I often use on photo shoots.

She dropped out of school in the 8th grade. She raised her little sisters while her mom did drugs. Her grand ambition, at 24, is to graduate from high school.

But hand this child a makeup brush or a curling iron and the results are magical.

Her communication skills are unsurpassed.

She can take someone's general ideas of what "beauty" is and help them find a way to see it in the mirror.

She is not intelligent but ohmygod is she imaginative.

And the fact that she can imagine ordinary people into beauty is magical.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 11:36 pm
Such great answsers. I think Drewdad's point is critical: imagination is a form of intelligence.
And, frankly, I'm glad that it's not measurable. I detest our nation's "testomania", its attempt to quantify and rank our capacities. As a university prof. my most disagreeable task was to assign grades to people in order that society can rank them.
I used to have a roommate in college who took a philosophy class with me. I got an A; he got a C. But years later I found that he remembered more and did more with the knowledge he learned in the class. That was never measured.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:25 am
See boomer, I think that your stylist is intelligent -- just not necessarily 3 R's intelligent. But I like Howard Gardner's types of intelligence, I think that's true.

Quote:
THE ORIGINAL SEVEN INTELLIGENCES


Howard Gardner first identified and introduced to us seven different kinds of intelligence in Frames of Mind.

  • Linguistic intelligence: a sensitivity to the meaning and order of words.
  • Logical-mathematical intelligence: ability in mathematics and other complex logical systems.
  • Musical intelligence: the ability to understand and create music. Musicians, composers and dancers show a heightened musical intelligence.
  • Spatial intelligence: the ability to "think in pictures," to perceive the visual world accurately, and recreate (or alter) it in the mind or on paper. Spatial intelligence is highly developed in artists, architects, designers and sculptors.
  • Bodily-kinesthetic intelligence: the ability to use one's body in a skilled way, for self-expression or toward a goal. Mimes, dancers, basketball players, and actors are among those who display bodily-kinesthetic intelligence.
  • Interpersonal intelligence: an ability to perceive and understand other individuals -- their moods, desires, and motivations. Political and religious leaders, skilled parents and teachers, and therapists use this intelligence.
  • Intrapersonal intelligence: an understanding of one's own emotions. Some novelists and or counselors use their own experience to guide others.


Then, Gardner identified an eighth intelligence, the naturalist intelligence.


HOWARD GARDNER TALKS ABOUT AN EIGHTH INTELLIGENCE

Gardner discussed the "eighth intelligence" with Kathy Checkley, in an interview for Educational Leadership, The First Seven... and the Eighth. Gardner said, "The naturalist intelligence refers to the ability to recognize and classify plants, minerals, and animals, including rocks and grass and all variety of flora and fauna. The ability to recognize cultural artifacts like cars or sneakers may also depend on the naturalist intelligence. …(S)ome people from an early age are extremely good at recognizing and classifying artifacts. For example, we all know kids who, at 3 or 4, are better at recognizing dinosaurs than most adults."

Gardner identified Charles Darwin as a prime example of this type of intelligence.

The naturalist intelligence meshed with Gardner's definition of intelligence as "…the human ability to solve problems or to make something that is valued in one or more cultures." And the naturalist intelligence met Gardner's specific criteria:

"Is there a particular representation in the brain for the ability?
"Are there populations that are especially good or especially impaired in an intelligence?
"And, can an evolutionary history of the intelligence be seen in animals other than human beings?"


http://www.education-world.com/a_curr/curr054.shtml

(The 8th has been added since I last studied this.)

So she could be linguistic and spatial, for example.

What I love about this is it gives us a way to say to value the different ways that people are smart -- a math whiz may be really great at that and really terrible at interpersonal intelligence, for example.
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 09:55 am
Yes, testomania - even compareomania - drives me batty.

That is an interesting list of "intelligences" soz, very similar to the "aptitudes" that DrewDad refered to.

I don't think its just me, but maybe it is, who typically thinks of intelligence as more 3 R's than other types of "smarts".

Let me reveal a bit more of the debate Mr. B and I had.....

He was marveling at how our neighbor kid could draw his 1s and 0s on command - how smart he must be.

I argued that to recognized circles and lines as such was no more marvelous than recognizing a picture of a bird or a rabbit. The 1s and 0s really didn't have any meaning.

And

That Mo's wild paintings (what he calls his stormclouds) and his rickety Lego structures (what he calls his tangles) are no less indicitive of intelligence than drawing circles and lines and naming them 1s and 0s.

Mr. B agrues that 1s and 0s are more meaningful and will give Mo a headstart on schooling.

I argue that stormclouds and tangles are more meaningful and will give Mo a headstart on learning.

I think we both have a good point.

He fails to see my point.

Intelligence (schooling) v. imagination (learning).

Now I don't want to turn this into a conversation about Mo, or my parenting skills or perhaps, lack thereof. I only offer this as a point in which the debate started and led to me asking your opinion.

BUT

I'm curious about how you think that early childhood "smarts" translates into successful education and adulthood.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 10:07 am
Yeah, I'm guilty of skimming and jumping in -- hadn't seen the "aptitude" thing that DrewDad posted.

I really like Gardner.

It seems to fit well with what you're saying -- 0's and 1's are logical-mathematical, and the new 8th one is exactly what you say Mo's doing -- naturalist.

I think creativity is an incredibly important skill, the whole catch a man a fish/ teach a man to fish. Being able to think oneself out of a problem is incredibly important. Mo sounds very creative -- tangles, stormclouds.

In terms of 3 R's, that's been very much the basis of intelligence testing. It hasn't allowed for someone who's not so great at math, reading or writing but is incredibly gregarious and well liked; an astounding athlete; an amazing artist.

I think I see both your and Mr. B's points. Oh where did... a-ha!! I have an excellent article for you, I'm gonna find it. I love love loved it.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 10:12 am
Quote:
How We Learn
By ALISON GOPNIK

Published: January 16, 2005

So here's the big question: if children who don't even go to school learn so easily, why do children who go to school seem to have such a hard time? Why can children solve problems that challenge computers but stumble on a third-grade reading test?

When we talk about learning, we really mean two quite different things, the process of discovery and of mastering what one discovers. All children are naturally driven to create an accurate picture of the world and, with the help of adults to use that picture to make predictions, formulate explanations, imagine alternatives and design plans. Call it ''guided discovery.''

If this kind of learning is what we have in mind then one answer to the big question is that schools don't teach the same way children learn. As in the gear-and-switch experiments, children seem to learn best when they can explore the world and interact with expert adults. For example, Barbara Rogoff, professor of psychology at the University of California at Santa Cruz, studied children growing up in poor Guatemalan Indian villages. The youngsters gradually mastered complex skills like preparing tortillas from scratch, beginning with the 2-year-old mimicking the flattening of dough to the 10-year-old entrusted with the entire task. They learned by watching adults, trying themselves and receiving detailed corrective feedback about their efforts. Mothers did a careful analysis of what the child was capable of before encouraging the next step.

This may sound like a touchy-feely progressive prescription. But a good example of such teaching in our culture is the stern but beloved baseball coach. How many school teachers are as good at essay writing, science or mathematics as the average coach is at baseball? And even when teachers are expert, how many children ever get to watch them work through writing an essay or designing a scientific experiment or solving an unfamiliar math problem?

Imagine if baseball were taught the way science is taught in most inner-city schools. Schoolchildren would get lectures about the history of the World Series. High school students would occasionally reproduce famous plays of the past. Nobody would get in the game themselves until graduate school.

But there is another side to the question.

In guided discovery -- figuring out how the world works or unraveling the structure of making tortillas -- children learn to solve new problems. But what is expected in school, at least in part, involves a very different process: call it ''routinized learning.'' Something already learned is made to be second nature, so as to perform a skill effortlessly and quickly.

The two modes of learning seem to involve different underlying mechanisms and even different brain regions, and the ability to do them develops at different stages. Babies are as good at discovery as the smartest adult -- or better. But routinized learning evolves later. There may even be brain changes that help. There are also tradeoffs: Children seem to learn new things more easily than adults. But especially through the school-age years, knowledge becomes more and more engrained and automatic. For that reason, it also becomes harder to change. In a sense, routinized learning is less about getting smarter than getting stupider: it's about perfecting mindless procedures. This frees attention and thought for new discoveries.

The activities that promote mastery may be different from the activities that promote discovery. What makes knowledge automatic is what gets you to Carnegie Hall -- practice, practice, practice. In some settings, like the Guatemalan village, this happens naturally: make tortillas every day and you'll get good at it. In our culture, children rich and poor grow highly skilled at video games they play for hours.

But in school we need to acquire unnatural skills like reading and writing. These are meaningless in themselves. There is no intrinsic discovery in learning artificial mapping between visual symbols and sounds, and in the natural environment no one would ever think of looking for that sort of mapping. On the other hand, mastering these skills is absolutely necessary, allowing us to exercise our abilities for discovery in a wider world.

The problem for many children in elementary school may not be that they're not smart enough but that they're not stupid enough. They haven't yet been able to make reading and writing transparent and automatic. This is particularly true for children who don't have natural opportunities to practice these skills, learning in chaotic and impoverished schools and leading chaotic and impoverished lives.

But routinized learning is not an end in itself. A good coach may well make his players throw the ball to first base 50 times or swing again and again in the batting cage. That will help, but by itself it won't make a strong player. The game itself -- reacting to different pitches, strategizing about base running -- requires thought, flexibility and inventiveness.

Children would never tolerate baseball if all they did was practice. No coach would evaluate a child, and no society would evaluate a coach, based on performance in the batting cage. What makes for learning is the right balance of both learning processes, allowing children to retain their native brilliance as they grow up.




Alison Gopnik is co-author of ''The Scientist in the Crib'' and professor of psychology at the University of California at Berkeley.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/16/education/edlife/EDSCIENCE.html?ei=1&en=a794c718e25141eb&ex=1106907545

(You gotta get "The Scientist in the Crib". It's fantastic.)

Mastery vs. discovery. Mo rocks at discovery, and that's very important.
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 10:20 am
boomer, teachers, whether they be parents or instructors, are only guides. Observations about how a child goes about problem solving is imperative. For one thing, there are too many "ready made" toys for children that claim to enhance their learning skills, but often stifle the child's imagination. Frankly, I really think that just ordinary objects and harmless things can give a parent or a teacher tremendous insight and predictability about formal schooling and its success. I don't remember learning to read, but there were books everywhere in our home, and music was a constant; however, numbers and the use thereof, were seldom challenged. Tests pigeon hole kids, and that can have disastrous results later on.

Learning by rote is all right, but just one phase in development.
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Miklos7
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 01:23 pm
So many tests in a kid's world today--his school's, his state's, his government's--and they offer almost no opportunity for him to use his imagination. Facts (some of them grossly inaccurate) and the results of pro forma use of rote skills are the expected answers. And, more and more of a teacher's time is devoted to preparing students for these meaningless exercises to demonstrate little useful knowledge, but, instead, what the bureaucracies term "accountability." By the time I retired from teaching, discursive conversation--from which I had learned most in school, and which seemed to encourage the best speculative thinking in my own classes--was becoming a vanishing form. Some of the young men and women I worked with were already spending a period or two a day with people who saw themselves more as some kind of technician than as a teacher/facilitator. After an hour of such linear thinking, according to lists and drills, they were both exhausted and hungry for conversation. If you engage them before they are turned off by the new system, kids would truly much rather speculate about the intracacies of Kafka's fiction than memorize any list. The most rudimentary scientific studies of memory tell us that people do not remember something well unless a minimal level of emotional connection is involved. How in the world can a student remember largely trivial facts that are connected mostly with boredom? The test-dominated school culture is producing significant numbers of disaffected kids who are not in a frame of mind to learn anything. Do they all suffer ADD? I think not; I think a great many of these poor kids suffer BOREDOM.

I, like JLN, had grave doubts about assigning even letter
grades, yet there are now teacher-technicians being taught to mark an essay as if there were a significant difference between 83 and 85. This is dishonest and dangerous baloney.

When I was in school and college (says the old guy!), my teachers used to deal in two general areas: things we "probably need to know" and things we "might well profit by thinking about further." No answers were supplied us for the issues in this second area, even though these topics might involve more than half of classroom time. An example: In third grade, I had a wonderful Science teacher, Miss Morse. Pluto's existence had recently been confirmed (now that really dates me!), and, after giving us the basic known facts on the ninth planet, she started handing us questions like, "Do you think more planets will be discovered in our solar system? How would you look for one? How could you tell it from a star? etc." We'd leave her classroom really excited--and CURIOUS. If kids are going to be imaginative, we need to stir up their curiosity. Currently, they are facing a system that does not reward curiosity, but often stifles it so that everyone can get back to the freaking list of test fodder.
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