THE MEANING OF OZ - All you need to know!

@msolga,

It was pretty disappointing I thought. Pell's mind/mouth link let him down quite a few times. I felt he had a little team of researchers working on this for weeks, coming up with answers and comebacks for typical Dawkins arguments. But he fluffed his lines too often. Dragging up something Dawkins said in a 2002 blogpost, that even if true held little value ( I think it was the agnostic vs atheist categorisation, which Dawkins had already addressed in an early question).

Neither was going to win any converts - but both could build some respect. I think Dawkins did a little better than Pell. Some of the questions that come from what seemed like believers were painful - like the worst of the arguments we get from newbies on the religious threads here. 'My hand has nothing in it, I close it, I open it, it still has nothing in it - so how can there have been a big bang?' Dawkins said, a little kindly, 'You're clearly not a physicist' - I would have said 'Well you are a rocket scientist aren't you?'

I thought the qandavote.tv was ludicrous. So now we've voted god out of the universe? Spare me.

I wander how Rome will look on Pell's assertion that atheists go to heaven. - I see Eorl is already packing his bags!

1 Reply

@msolga,

Appreciate the link Msolga, Thanks !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

My pleasure, Fil A.
A pleasure to cross paths with you here, too! Smile

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@hingehead,

Quote:

It was pretty disappointing I thought.

Yes, I agree.
A shame that some of the questions posed weren't "meatier", more interesting .....
And a shame that the studio audience seemed (mostly, I thought) so partisan (pro-Catholic/Christian). That influenced the conduct of the debate in a way that I found rather gut-wrenching & stressful at times. (Like wild applause for some of Pell's not-quite-so-brilliant comments!)
I don't think Dawkins quite knew how to take some of the audience responses, in his jet-lagged state! Poor thing. Wink

Quote:

I thought the qandavote.tv was ludicrous. So now we've voted god out of the universe? Spare me.

No, no, no! Smile

The vote was in response to the question:
"Does religious belief make the world a better place?"
The overwhelming TV audience response being that it doesn't.

Quote:

I wander how Rome will look on Pell's assertion that atheists go to heaven

I wonder how gays will take to being described as slight imperfections in an otherwise perfect Persian carpet?
I wonder of gays get to go to heaven, too?

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@msolga,

G'die Mights!

I've a question. What are the demographics in regard to religion in Australia? Are most people religious or non-religious in Oz?

edit: This isn't directed to msolga specifically. I pressed the wrong button to reply.

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@InfraBlue,

This is 2001 data.

Looks like the trend is increasing atheism/agnosticism.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/bb8db737e2af84b8ca2571780015701e/bfdda1ca506d6cfaca2570de0014496e!OpenDocument

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/bb8db737e2af84b8ca2571780015701e/bfdda1ca506d6cfaca2570de0014496e!OpenDocument

1 Reply

@dlowan,

Thanks for the info, dlowan. It's kind of difficult to compare the stats in regard to religion among the developed world. No religious affiliation doesn't necessarily translate to atheism/agnosticism, and survey questions difffer, but the numbers seem roughly consistent between the US, Europe and Oz. Wikipedia cites a 2005 Eurobarometer poll as 18% having neither a belief in god, or belief in "some sort of spirit or life force," and in the US it cites a 2008 survey as 15% of Americans having "no religious identification."

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

G'die Mights!

I've a question. What are the demographics in regard to religion in Australia? Are most people religious or non-religious in Oz?

G'day, mate! Wink

I did a bit of Googling to see if I could find answers to your question.

This is the best I could come up with. (There has been another census since 2006, but I suspect that the results would would be pretty much in line with these.)

But I do believe, whatever anyone chooses to make of these statistics, that religion plays a far less important role in the lives of most Australians than say, it does in the US. Certainly there is nothing like the impact of extremist religious beliefs on politics here. And that is the most important factor in "religious tolerance" here. Religion is not a big deal to most of us. Other Australians here might choose to disagree with that assessment, but that's how I see it.

Quote:

Atheism, agnosticism, deism, scepticism, freethought, secular humanism or general secularism is increasing in Australia.[2] Post-war Australia has become a highly secularised country. [3] Religion does not play a major role in the lives of much of the population.[4]

In the 2006 Australian census, 18.7% of Australians (or 3,706,555 people) described themselves as having "no religion." This was three percent higher than in the 2001 census, and was the largest growth in total number of any religious option in the census with 800,557 people.[2] A further 2.4 million (11.9%) did not state a religion (or inadequately described it).[5] So just over 30% of Australians did not state a religious affiliation in the 2006 census. According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 25% of Australians do not believe in a god or gods.[6]

Irreligion in Australia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Australia

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@msolga,

Wasn't there a big push to get people to write in 'Jedi' in the last Census? I wonder how that went.

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@msolga,

Yep....religion, generally, is a non issue...except for the most fundy of all the multiple religions in Oz. Naming oneself as having a particular religion is, for most christians in Oz, not indicative of an agenda remotely resembling the christianism in the USA.

1 Reply

@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

Yep....religion, generally, is a non issue...except for the most fundy of all the multiple religions in Oz. Naming oneself as having a particular religion is, for most christians in Oz, not indicative of an agenda remotely resembling the christianism in the USA.

and thank someone for that!

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@msolga,

Just in case anyone outside of Oz who took the time to watch the Dawkins/Pell debate might have come to the conclusion that all religious leaders in Oz are as conservative as Cardinal George Pell ......

Let me just say that that conclusion would be completely wrong.

George Pell is considered a right wing conservative religious leader here by many (apart from the minority of right wing Catholics & some Liberal Party politicians). I sympathize with progressive Catholics here who view his elevation to the "leader" of their religion as most unfortunate.

This (link below) is the response to a (failed) Liberal Party politician's criticism of (what I'd certainly consider) a far more enlightened view than George Pell's.

It's from Dr Philip Freier, the Anglican Archbishop of Melbourne. He dared to address inequality in Australian society in his Easter address & was attacked in our press for having done so .... by the former Liberal Party treasurer.

What can you say?

Some religions move ahead, respond to the challenges of the times ... but some former (& current!) politicians (say nothing of entrenched conservative religious "leaders") don't ... or can't for whatever their motivation might be.

Fair distribution of wealth will enrich Australian society:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/fair-distribution-of-wealth-will-enrich-australian-society-20120411-1ws4y.html

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@msolga,

http://images.theage.com.au/2012/04/14/3219310/port-Wilcox-600x400.jpg

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For those of you who might have missed this on Izzie's thread, just letting you know that Dutchy was readmitted to hospital on Friday.
Very sad & worrying news.

See the third post from the bottom ( link below) for more information.
Iz is in touch with Danny's wife & is keeping us posted on Danny's progress.
Thanks, Iz.

Get well, Danny!

"YABBER-LINER" - ALL ABOARD:
http://able2know.org/topic/111721-1286

1 Reply

@msolga,

Thanks for the heads up, Msolga. There's only one Cosmic Eagle.

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@hingehead,

From the man who first termed the word multi-culturalism, it was never intended to have different cultures living side by side . It was intended as a starting point for integration of different cultures . He has been mistakenly interpreted as saying many cultures forced to tolerate each other is a splendid thing.

Quote:

Tell me one of your no go zones and I'll go there.

Redfern .

The rich have set our immigration policy and their only defense of it is to scream racist if the poor have a problem with it . The Forsyth-Smyths dont have a problem with Professor Abdul, they even belong to the same Wife Swapping and Opera Appreciation clubs . Now go to a poor Sydney suburb and ask the Vietnamese what they think of the Lebanese, and vice versa . But this problem doesnt exist because the only objectors are racist ??

Corrupt cops have repeatedly taken advantage of immigration waves to further their criminal ends . How do you think the Lebanese could act with impunity after the Australia Day incident ? In the 70's the mafia ran King's Cross . Then it was the Triad and now it is the Lebs . Coincidentally, the owners of King's Cross are the latest immigrants .

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Here's last night's Q&A, for anyone who missed it, or might be interested.

Very interesting ... apart from Christopher Pyne! Wink

:

Q&A ... 16 April 2012:
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3473507.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/search/Q%26A (wide screen option)

1 Reply

@msolga,

It was kind of odd. Now that I've seen both Chris Pain and Mr Rabbit both say they agree with the government on some things I can only imagine their own polling has shown the Dr No stuff is gaining traction.

That is the least painful I've ever seen Pyne. He was only moderately annoying. Geoffrey Robertson was a hoot. You can't say he's left or right - he's just him. I loved his line about Pell letting atheists into heaven 'I'm sure God would draw the line at lawyers'.

Looking forward to Bob Brown in a one on one next week.

1 Reply

@hingehead,

So much more to say about last night's program.
Especially about the Julian Assange part ...
But I'm in the middle of cooking dinner, with a friend turning up soon, so it will have to wait.

1 Reply

@msolga,

I had so much to say & now I'm pooped & about to go to bed .... Smile

So I'll be brief.
As much as I admire Nicola Roxon, I felt that her perfectly reasonable attitude toward Julian Assange did not at all reflect the government's past attitude toward him.
The previous attorney-general stated publicly that he (Assange) was "not welcome" to return to Australia. There was some talk of his passport being cancelled. He was subject to an investigation by the federal police at the instigation of the (then) attorney-general & was cleared of having broken any Australian laws. And our prime minister's comments about him (in support of the US) caused considerable concern at the time.

Open letter to the prime minister:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41914.html

To cut a potentially lengthy spiel short, let's just hope that he does in fact receive the government support he as every right to expect as an Australian citizen, if & when such support is required ....

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