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How can god have a "plan" for anyone?

 
 
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 06:41 pm
I don't see why people think god can have a plan for anybody. What if god had a plan for all those 150,000+ people that died in that tsunami? How can anyone complete their "plan" or whatever in what seems like the complete chaos of the world? Question Question
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 4,157 • Replies: 42
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Individual
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 06:55 pm
How do you know that their death wasn't God's intention?

What if contributing to the chaos was their personal plan, or that they could only complete their plan in chaos?

How do you know that what we live in is chaos?
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inner peace
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:03 pm
Individual wrote:
How do you know that their death wasn't God's intention?

What if contributing to the chaos was their personal plan, or that they could only complete their plan in chaos?

How do you know that what we live in is chaos?



Wow that's great my life plan is to die in a giant tsunami Confused also I do believe we live in chaos because of free will.... anyone can pretty much go crazy and kill anyone they want to
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Individual
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:13 pm
If you believe that God sets forth a plan for every single person, and that God controls everything (as I'm assuming you do), then why do you think that the tsunami wasn't part of the outcome that he had chosen for those people? Following that reasoning, it's only natural that he must have control over that particular event and decided that it should kill all of them. And since he wouldn't stray from his own plan, he must have planned for those people to die in that tsunami.

Where did you ever get the idea that your path was to die in a tsunami? Or that people's lives aren't bleak for a purpose?

How can you possibly believe in free will and god's plan?
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inner peace
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:21 pm
Individual wrote:
If you believe that God sets forth a plan for every single person, and that God controls everything (as I'm assuming you do), then why do you think that the tsunami wasn't part of the outcome that he had chosen for those people? Following that reasoning, it's only natural that he must have control over that particular event and decided that it should kill all of them. And since he wouldn't stray from his own plan, he must have planned for those people to die in that tsunami.

Where did you ever get the idea that your path was to die in a tsunami? Or that people's lives aren't bleak for a purpose?

How can you possibly believe in free will and god's plan?



obviously I don't believe in god's "plan" .... Anyway where did you get the idea that my path wasn't to die in that tsunami but oh say I decided not to go to South-East Asia for my own reasons?
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:24 pm
inner-peace wrote:
also I do believe we live in chaos because of free will.... anyone can pretty much go crazy and kill anyone they want to


But what is chaos? Chaos requires perspective. What appears as chaas to one might be very well ordered to another. Have you ever walked the streets in a crowded city? From the ground it apears very chaotic but if you go to the roof of a 7 or 8 story buildinga nd look down things appear much more organized.

From chaos comes order and from order comes chaos. Perhaps we just lack the perspective to recognize the order?
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Individual
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:29 pm
Oh...I'm sorry, I read your post wrong and thought that you were having trouble understanding how everyone could have a plan if they kept dying in disasters.

Anyway, the reasoning behind God's plan is that everything you do has been predestined. Therefore, if you decided not to go to SE Asia, that was part of your plan. Were your plan to die in that tsunami, then you wouldn't be talking to me right now.

BTW, you don't have to quote people in your response if you're posting directly beneath them.
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inner peace
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:32 pm
Well can you be predestined to die without accepting christ and going to hell?
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inner peace
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:48 pm
haha that last question is a tough one huh :wink:
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fishin
 
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Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 07:51 pm
inner-peace wrote:
Well can you be predestined to die without accepting christ and going to hell?


This isn't so easily answered because there are varying views on what predestination means and entails. For a discussion on it take a look at:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=41799
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inner peace
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 08:03 pm
thanks, I'll check it out
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 08:10 pm
Predestination is bunk... ask anyone who's seen photo's of the Tsunami victims, Auschwitz, or Dresden for that matter. If these things are part of some master plan, than God's an A-hole. And, why would anybody worship an A-hole? This paradox was created when man decided that not only did he need a God, but also that he should use said God as an excuse for evil.
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superjuly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jan, 2005 08:44 am
inner-peace -- I've been looking for you. :wink:
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Rex the Wonder Squirrel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 01:24 pm
It is unthinkable that a God of infinite wisdom and power would create a world without a definite plan for that world. And because God is thus infinite His plan must extend to every detail of the world's existence. If we could see the world in all its relations, past, present, and future, we would see that it is following a predetermined course with exact precision. Among created things we may search where we will, as far as the microscope and the telescope will enable the eye to see, we find organization everywhere. Large forms resolve themselves into parts, and these parts in their turn are but organized of other parts down as far as we can see into infinity.

Even man, who is but the creature of a day and subject to all kinds of errors, develops a plan before he acts; and a man who acts without design or purpose is accounted foolish. Before we make a trip or undertake a piece of work all of us set our goal and then work to attain that goal in so far as we are able. Regardless of how some people may oppose Predestination in theory, all of us in our every-day lives are practical predestinarians. As E. W. Smith says, a wise man "first determines upon the end he desires to attain, and then upon the best means of attaining it. Before the architect begins his edifice, he makes his drawings and forms his plans, even to the minutest details of construction. In the architect's brain the building stands complete in all its parts before a stone is laid. So with the merchant, the lawyer, the farmer, and all rational and intelligent men. Their activity is along the line of previously formed purposes, the fulfillment, so far as their finite capacities will allow, Of preconceived plans." (The Creed of Presbyterians, p. 159.)

The larger our enterprise is, the more important it is that we shall have a plan; otherwise all our work ends in failure. One would be considered mentally deranged who undertook to build ship, or a railroad, or to govern a nation without a plan. We are told that before Napoleon began the invasion of Russia he had a plan worked out in detail, showing what line of march each division of his army was to follow, where it was to be at a certain time, what equipment and provisions it was to have, etc. Whatever was wanting in that plan was due to the limitations of human power and wisdom. Had Napoleon's foresight been perfect and his control of events absolute, his plan -- or we may say, his foreordination -- would have extended to every act of every soldier who made that march.

And if this is true of man, how much more is it true of God! "A universe without decrees," says A. J. Gordon. "would be as irrational and appalling as would be an express train driving on in the darkness without headlight or engineer, and with no certainty that the next moment it might not plunge into the abyss." We cannot conceive of God bringing into existence a universe without a plan which would extend to all that would be done in that universe. As the Scriptures teach that God's providential control extends to all events, even the most minute, they thereby teach that His plan is equally comprehensive. It is one of His perfections that He has the best possible plan, and that He conducts the course of history to its appointed end. And to admit that He has a plan which He carries out is to admit Predestination. "God's plan is shown in its effectuation to be one," says Dabney. "Cause is linked with effect, and what was effect becomes cause; the influences of events on events interlace with each other, and descend in widening streams to subsequent events; so that the whole complex result is through every part. As astronomers suppose that the removal of one planet from our system would modify more or less the balance and orbits of all the rest, so the failure of one event in this plan would derange the whole, directly or indirectly." (Theology. p. 214.)

If God had not foreordained the course of events but waited until some undetermined condition was or was not fulfilled, His decrees could be neither eternal nor immutable. We know, however, that He is incapable of mistake, and that He cannot be surprised by any unforeseen inconveniences. His kingdom is in the heavens and He rules over all. His plan must, therefore, include every event in the entire sweep of history.

That even the small events have their place in this plan. and that they must be as they are, is easily seen. All of us know of certain "chance happenings" which have actually changed the course of our lives. The effects of these extend throughout all succeeding history in ever-widing influences, causing other "chance happenings." It is said that the quacking of some geese once saved Rome. Whether historically true or not it will serve as a good illustration. Had not the geese awakened the guards who gave the alarm and aroused the defending army, Rome would have fallen and the course of history from that time on would have been radically different. Had those geese remained silent who can imagine what empires might have been in existence today, or where the centers of culture might have been? During a battle a bullet misses the general by only an inch. His life is spared, he goes on commanding his troops, wins a decisive victory, and is made the chief ruler of his country for many years,--as was the case with George Washington. Yet what a different course history would have taken had the soldier on the other side aimed the slightest trifle higher or lower! The great Chicago fire of 1871, which destroyed more than I half of the city, was started, we are told, when a cow kicked over a lantern. How different would have been the history of Chicago if that one motion had been slightly different! "The control of the greatest must include the control of the less, for not only are great things made up of little things, but history shows how the veriest trifles are continually proving the pivots on which momentous events revolve. The persistence of a spider nerved a despairing man to fresh exertions which shaped a nation's future. The God who predestinated the course of Scotch history must have planned and presided over the movements of that tiny insect that saved Robert Bruce from despair." (The Creed of Presbyterians, p. 160.) Examples of this kind could be multiplied indefinitely.

The Pelagian denies that God has a plan; the Arminian says that God has a general but not a specific plan; but the Calvinist says that God has a specific plan which embraces all events in all ages. In recognizing that the eternal God has an eternal plan in which is predetermined every event that comes to pass, the Calvinist simply recognizes that God is God, and frees Him from all human limitations. The Scriptures represent God as a person, like other persons in that His acts are purposeful, but unlike other persons in that He is all-wise in His planning and all-powerful in His performing. They see the universe as the product of His creative power, and as the theater in which are displayed His glorious perfections, and which must in all its form and all its history, down to the least detail, correspond with His purpose in making it.

In a very illuminating article on "Predestination," Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield, who in the opinion of the present writer has emerged as the outstanding theologian since John Calvin, tells us that the writers of Scripture saw the divine plan as "broad enough to embrace the whole universe of things, and minute enough to concern itself with the smallest details, and actualizing itself with inevitable certainty in every event that comes to pass." "In the infinite wisdom of the Lord of all the earth, each event falls with exact precision into its proper place in this unfolding of His eternal plan; nothing, however small, however strange, occurs without His ordering, or without its peculiar fitness for its place in the working out of His purposes; and the end of all shall be the manifestation of His glory, and accumulation of His praise. This is the Old Testament (as well as the New Testament) philosophy of the universes world-view which attains concrete unity in an absolute decree, or purpose, or plan of which all that comes to pass is the development in time." (Biblical Doctrines, pp. 13, 22.)

The very essence of consistent theism is that God would have an exact plan for the world, would foreknow the actions of all the creatures He proposed to create, and through His all-inclusive providence would control the whole system. If He fore- ordained only certain isolated events, confusion both in the natural -world and in human affairs would be introduced into the system and He would need to be constantly developing new plans to accomplish what be desired. His government of the world then would be a capricious patch work of new expedients He would at best govern only in a general way, and would be ignorant of much of the future. But no one with proper ideas of God believes that He has to change His mind every few days to make room for unexpected happenings which were not included in His original plan. If the perfection of the divine plan be denied, no consistent stopping place will be found short of atheism.

In the first place there was no necessity that God should create at all. He acted with perfect freedom when He brought this world into existence. When He did choose to create there was before Him an infinite number of possible plans. But as a matter of fact we find that He chose this particular one in which we now are. And since He knew perfectly every event of every kind which would be involved in this particular world-order, He very obviously predetermined every event which would happen when He chose this plan. His choice of the plan, or His making certain that the creation should be on this order, we call His foreordination or His predestination.

Even the sinful acts of men are included in this plan. They are foreseen, permitted, and have their exact place. They are controlled and overruled for the divine glory. The crucifixion of Christ, which is admittedly the worst crime in all human history, had, we are expressly told, its exact and necessary place in the plan (Acts 2:23; 4:28). This particular manner of redemption is not an expedient to which God was driven after being defeated and disappointed by the fall of man. Rather it is "according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord," Eph. 3:11. Peter tells us that Christ as a sacrifice for sin was "foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world," I Peter 1:20. Believers were "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" (or from eternity), Eph. 1:4. We are saved not by our own temporary works, "but according to His purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal," II Tim. 1:9. And if the crucifixion of Christ, or His offering up Himself as a sacrifice for sin, was in the eternal plan, then plainly the fall of Adam and all other sins which made that sacrifice necessary were in the plan, no matter how undesirable a part of that plan they may have been.

History in all its details, even the most minute, is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God. His decrees are not successively formed as the emergency arises, but are all parts of one all-comprehending plan, and we should never think of Him suddenly evolving a plan or doing something which He had not thought of before.

The fact that the Scriptures often speak of one purpose of God as dependent on the outcome of another or on the actions of men, is no objection against this doctrine. The Scriptures are written in the every-day language of men, and they often describe an act or a thing as it appears to be, rather than as it really is. The Bible speaks of "the four corners of the earth," Is. 11:12, and of "the foundations of the earth," Ps. 104:5; yet no one understands this to mean that the earth is square, or that it actually rests upon a foundation. We speak of the sun rising and setting, yet we know that it is not the motion of the sun but that of the earth as it turns over on its axis which causes this phenomenon. Likewise, when the Scriptures speak of God repenting, for instance, no one with proper ideas of God understands it to mean that He sees He has pursued a wrong course and changes His mind. It simply means that His action as seen from the human view-point appears to be like that of a man who repents. In other places the Scriptures speak of the hands, or arms, or eyes of God. These are what are known as "anthropomorphisms," instances in which God is referred to as if He were a man. When the word "repent," for instance, is used in its strict sense God is said never to repent: "God is not a man, that He should lie, Neither the son of man, that lie should repent." Nu. 23:19; and again, "The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man, that He should repent," I Sam. 15:29.

The contemplation of this great plan must redound to the praise of the unsearchable wisdom and illimitable power of Him who devised and executes it. And what can give the Christian more satisfaction and joy than to know that the whole course of the world is ordered with reference to the establishment of the Kingdom of heaven and the manifestation of the Divine glory; and that he is one of the objects upon which infinite love and mercy is to be lavished?


Quote:
but also that he should use said God as an excuse for evil.


Did you take anytime to learn about the God of Christianity before making that statement? Or are you just borderline retarded?

God is not an excuse for evil. He is the solution to the evil generated by man.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 03:31 pm
Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:
Quote:
but also that he should use said God as an excuse for evil.


Did you take anytime to learn about the God of Christianity before making that statement? Or are you just borderline retarded?

God is not an excuse for evil. He is the solution to the evil generated by man.
Welcome to A2K, Rex. Do us a favor and indicate when you're quoting someone else and when you're speaking for yourself.

Yes, I did take the time to learn about the God of Christianity before making that statement. Does that mean I'm not borderline retarded? Or did you miss-word your fallacious complex question?

If you want to believe your imaginary friend has everything planned out, that's fine with me. But if you intend to claim millions of people starving to death, the holocaust and slavery are both part of that plan and not evil; I suggest you check your premise.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 03:35 pm
you new members may not yet know that I talk with God frequently, at least once a week. I'll ask him about this over dinner tomorrow evening and get back to you.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 03:50 pm
BPB, I guess it will be Manishevitz wine then with the sacrificial lamb.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 04:09 pm
wine and lamb for God...yager and wings for me.....
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Rex the Wonder Squirrel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 04:56 pm
Quote:
But if you intend to claim millions of people starving to death, the holocaust and slavery are both part of that plan and not evil


Okay, maybe you're not borderline retarded...maybe you just have bad eyesight. Did you not read what I posted up there? God has a plan for everyone's life-- it is our choice to follow that plan or reject it.

If you really did take the time to look up God as understood by Christians, then you would know that He does not destroy life, but rather gives it in abundance. The Holocaust and the tsunami cannot be attributed to God, for they occurred because of man. God doesn't cause these destructions-- rather, he permits them, and brings good out of them.

I think Pastor David Fernandes said it well when he put it this way...

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I think we, as mere mortals, must reconcile ourselves to not understanding everything fully or having foolproof explanations to God's perspective on the tsunami. After all only He is all knowing.

However from the Bible, we can draw some lessons to learn from it all.

"Weep with those who weep," says the Bible. At a time like this our true nature is revealed to us. Do we really care? Do we care enough to do something? Are we led to pray for those affected? Searching in trauma has meaning in itself as we draw closer to God. Besides, Biblically, every deadly calamity is a merciful call from God for us to repent.

That was Jesus's stunning statement to those who brought Him news of calamity. (Luke 13:4-5) It takes a calamity to arrest our attention. Let us not fear the seas that were created by Him but rather fear their Creator who will one day ask every man and woman an account for their time on earth.


There's a lot of pain in the world today. But a common misconception is to view that pain as something an unmerciful God dumped on us, leading many to use tragedies such as this tsunami as justification for not believing in Him.

But pain shouldn't be viewed like that. Pain is a teacher. Sometimes pain is the only bridge to where you want-- and need-- to go. Pain is power, also-- power to change things for the better. That's how change happens: someone hurts, and sooner or later decides to do something about it. Suffering is the fuel in the engine of civilization.

This tsunami handed hundreds of thousands of people their fate, yes. But it was their time to pass on. And for those left, this tragedy isn't destroying them.

Because pain is a teacher, and a bridge. It can be a slave master, and break you-- and it can be the power that makes you unbreakable. It is all these things, and more. At the same time. What it is depends on who you are.

So for those left, this tragedy isn't destroying them. It's making them.
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Individual
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2005 05:12 pm
Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:
...then you would know that [God] does not destroy life, but rather gives it in abundance. The Holocaust and the tsunami cannot be attributed to God, for they occurred because of man. God doesn't cause these destructions-- rather, he permits them, and brings good out of them.


So why do we die? How is our death our fault?

What about the tsunami? How can you attribute that responsibility to man?


By the way, being arrant doesn't help to prove your points...
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