DO YOU BELIEVE IN FATE- DESTINY??

Max209 wrote:

i made me want to lift my arm up
the ONLY thing that made me want to lift my arm up was me

But maybe if you didn't lift your arm, then in that moment instead of lifting your arm you got up and made your way outside and got killed by a car.... you lifted your arm for a reason, to prevent something else from taking place.. just like if you took that one extra second to get ready in the morning, that one seconds changes yur entire day!

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Max, your experiment supposes you can step into and out of free will. if your arm was destined to wave, then you were destined to point out that it was waving.
a better way to argue with someone who doesn't believe in free will is to slap them across the face as hard as you can. then you can get into a very practical discussion as to whether or not it exists.

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BlissfulIgnorance wrote:

Max, your experiment supposes you can step into and out of free will.

Disclaimer: Here comes the conservative Southern Baptist.

IMHO I think you sort of can (See Bliss Above).

I believe in predestined events, but that we get choices in between.

EX: There America was going to be discovered but it did not have to be Chris columbus who did it (Bad example cause he really didn't). Gravity was going to be proven but it did not have to be Newton. That sort of thing. Make Sense?

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The problem with the argument, IMO, is that the results of the causes, however unfixed, are at that moment a part of him, and thus he is not so wrong in saying that 'he' chooses to lift his arm. HOwever, we must now describe what the 'he' is.

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you mean it had absolutly nothing at all whatsoever or in any other way to do with your computer? Reading and dwelling on your computer screen had nothing to do with your action or moving your arm? Or did it have something to do with it? And so was it part of the cause?

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and ray may be onto something... I find it unlikely that I will be attacking what he has to say on this.

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BlissfulIgnorance wrote:

Max, your experiment supposes you can step into and out of free will. if your arm was destined to wave, then you were destined to point out that it was waving.
.

how does it suppose i can step in and out of free will
i moved my arm because i wanted to move my arm at no point was there a place (or in my mind where i can see) any laspe in free will i did what i did because i wanted to

and with regard to what ray said it is true
it does depend on what u mean by "i or he"
i mean me as a whole my body my consciousness my mind everything that makes me who i am
and maybe i should of addressed that in the first place
(i am hoping not to lose sight of where we are going by that i mean sticking to the "fate destiny"topic and not moving on to "who or what makes me me "

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let me put and arguement to you then (if you believein fate/destiny)

do you have or intend to have kids
if you do, then if one of your kids does something wrong will you punish the child if you do you are a hypocrit (sp) as you are punishing them for things they could not possibly have any control over also you should try to see that all the prisons be emptied (sp) as again the people in prison could not help commiting the crimes that they were sent down for and so should not of been punished for them

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Quote:

Even if everything is laid out ahead of time, you still can choose your paths to an extent.

If everything is laid out, then how can you "choose your paths"? In that case, then path you take is the path that was laid out for you before you ever took it.

I believe in fate and destiny, yes. Though I think fate is inevitable (kneeling to tie your shoe just as a bullet flies over you head, stuff like that), whereas your destiny is what you were meant to do, but don't have to. You can embrace your destiny or not, it's your choice.

Not that you even know your destiny in the first place to choose it. So it could be fate that you embraced your destiny or not...but then it just goes in circles. So I'll stop here. Razz

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Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:

Quote:
Even if everything is laid out ahead of time, you still can choose your paths to an extent.

If everything is laid out, then how can you "choose your paths"? In that case, then path you take is the path that was laid out for you before you ever took it.

I believe in fate and destiny, yes. Though I think fate is inevitable (kneeling to tie your shoe just as a bullet flies over you head, stuff like that), whereas your destiny is what you were meant to do, but don't have to. You can embrace your destiny or not, it's your choice.

Not that you even know your destiny in the first place to choose it. So it could be fate that you embraced your destiny or not...but then it just goes in circles. So I'll stop here.

Yay!! Somebody agrees with me!! YIPPEE

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Does it really matter if there is pre-destiny/fate...if we are all going to do what we want anyway?

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Quote:

Does it really matter if there is pre-destiny/fate...if we are all going to do what we want anyway?

That's the whole question-- are we really doing what we want, or are we just the active part of something already planned out. In other words, we're actually doing what the "plan" has us laid out to do, instead of exercising what we feel as free will.

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What I'm trying to say is that we obviously can do what we want...possibly that is the plan. I'll try to explain...maybe the plan is not very detailed, but it is set up so that we have free choice, but our paths are set up to cross with others at different points.

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But how can you have free choice if it is already planned.. are you really choosing if it is already choosen for you... You may 'choose' to call someone... but you were meant to call them... that choice was choosen for you years before you knew it even existed!

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If we don't have free will, I can't tell...I don't think anyone can.

Quote:

You may 'choose' to call someone... but you were meant to call them

I want someone to explain the whole meant to do thing.

Another thing, if what we are going to do is inevitable...isn't that repetitive? Isn't that like saying "I am going to do whatever I'm going to do, whether it was laid out, or not?"

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Another words, lets say you come to a crossroad and in that crossroad you have to 'choose' the path you want to go down... well you make think you are choosing that path but the choice was already made for you... you just don't think it is... free will doesn't exist... we just think it does... and don't say you choose to believe in free will because that choice was already made too.. Just Like I was meant to have this conversation with you.. because by me saying all of this it may have a future impact on an event you have in your life....

the whole meant to thing is like this... lets say you lose your car keys and are a minute or two late going to work then you see are car accident on the way to work and realize hey that could have been me!! And it would have been if you hadn't of lost the keys

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I believe in fate and destiny, but only as viewed from the present in the direction of the past. Some know it better as "history". The future hasn't happened yet so if fate does exist then it doesn't exist yet. Smile

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Eorl wrote:

I believe in fate and destiny, but only as viewed from the present in the direction of the past. Some know it better as "history". The future hasn't happened yet so if fate does exist then it doesn't exist yet.

how do you know the future isn't occuring somewhere else right now? It could be on another dimension... anything is possible... maybe we already had this conversation... kinda like deja vu... you feel like something has already happened! ??

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What I think is possible....well anything is possible no matter how unlikely. The question was, what do I believe, I believe that what you see is what you get and you can change the course of potential history right now if you want to.

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Anything might be possible, but anything is definitely not probable.

Determinism and destiny don't go hand in hand. Determinism just states that cause produce an effect. Destiny, is thinking that everything is planned out by something.

I, for one, would challenge determinism on the basis of what cause the first cause? If everything were to have a cause, then would not the first cause be causing itself and thus have no prior causes? That is if there is a first cause.

I don't believe in destiny however.

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DO YOU BELIEVE IN FATE- DESTINY??

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