A rose by any other name.

When I moved to Brooklyn I met some of the most blatant racists I've ever known. It made me rethink the notion of south/north regarding predjudice. We've gone a long tortuous path since the Civil War and nothing stays exactly the same.

Racism is a form of discrimination that is less and less morally justifiable the more we grow. I dare to suggest that it is not a main problem anymore when dealing with discrimination. There are many other ways we discriminate, and that are harder to see than the black and white thing. There are new dividinglines in the world today. New fronts to be set up in such a discussion. I am just wondering where to start...

I -think- you're responding to my comment about interbreeding removing genetic disorders. If not then please disregard what I'm about to say.

Mate, if you need cystic fibrosis or some other harmful genetic disorder to make yourself unique then that's a pretty sad state of affairs.
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I want to be unique... just like everyone else.

I'm thinking about it in terms of everyone looking the same, having the same skin color, same culture, that sort of thing. Some people say that this, the blending of the races, will end racism. To me, it sounds like a pretty damn boring kind of world. No place I'd want to be.

Oh Pfff... Again if you need a culture or skin colour to make yourself unique then there musn't be much to you. Are you simply a shallow stereotype of whatever culture, race, nationality, gender and sexuality you are? You make it sound like people have no more depth or individuality to them than the Token 'X' character on a tv-series.

I'm not unique because I'm Australian, or because I have white skin or because my great grandparents were scottish. Nor because of the language I speak or the clothes I wear or even my damn DNA. I'm unique because I'm me, there are thousands of different things that make up my nature, my personality and my individuality.

My guilty little secret that I read kids books from time to time, despite the fact that I was desperate to be allowed to read adult books at primary school (not THAT kind of adult book). The way I hate being asked questions in the morning but love being asked questions in the evening. The way I'll become obsessed about some random stupid topic for no reason whatsoever and be determined to find out everything about it, for about two hours before I completely lose interest and never even think about it again. The way I enjoy furry artwork. My propensity towards bad puns and habbit of developing "in jokes" with people that I've only known for five minutes. The fact that I love being bad at something, even when I know how much I suck, up until other people assume I don't know and point it out.

That's only scratching the surface of the many things that make me unique. These things don't come from my culture. They're not Australian, White or Scottish traits. They're simply the things that make up me. I doubt you'd find many people with even the same few things as I've listed up above, let alone the full list of thousands of quirks.

In the same way, no matter how many differences you get rid of, people will still draw lines between each other. It's a matter of drawing them in the least harmful way.

Yes, I do consider my skin color, my culture, all of that, as beautiful, unique, and very much a part of who I am.

Your skin reflects a slightly different portion of the electromagnetic spectrum... wow, what an achievement. Without that I don't know how I'd even be able to tell people apart, let alone how anyone will maintain any sense of identity.

Achievement?

I don't think she's saying that.

Culture is undoubtedly a big part of identity -- more so for minority cultures than majority ones, I'd say. For majority cultures, it's baseline, it's not as noticeable. Minority cultures take a great deal of strength from each other as they navigate the the majority culture.

very true Soz and when a community is living in another country - even if several generations have passed since the original family left their country of origin - the roots and culture have more importance. I see it with the Irish in America amongst other groups.

Where I live we have a very mixed multicultural community and there are still Polish clubs from those who stayed after the war, grandchildren still learn traditional dances etc, Irish clubs and Irish dancing/music, there are Indian dancers (very elegant and beautiful) and now the recent addition the Somalians are setting up clubs to enjoy their culture.

As long as these activities don't isolate people from mixing with the mainstream/other cultures, I think they can only enrich life. The festivities for Diwali are amazing, our Carribean carnival is great, there are celebrations for Hanukah (?sp) and we've just had memorial/remembrance events for the anniversary of the troops reaching Auschwitz. There's loads of other stuff on a smaller scale.

I'm a member of a couple of minority cultures, one is Judaism (the culture.) I watched "A Baby Story" the other day and it was this Jewish couple and their extended family. I wasn't thinking anything particular -- maybe "oh, she looks just like my cousin" or "heh that's what my grandma would say" -- but it was really fun to watch, cool people, happy story. Nice half hour.

Then the next one started, and it was this unremarkable, perfectly nice WASP-ish couple. I just kind of tensed. It was so weird. I just totally got the first couple, they were saying what I'd expect them to say, acting how I'd expect them to act, same wavelength. Even though I have an (erstwhile) Methodist mother and have certainly dealt with puh-lenty of non-Jews in my life, it was a total switch in mood and relaxation level when the second couple came on.

I remember reading studies about stress levels and ability to learn for black kids in a white environment -- their stress levels were considerably higher than in an all-black environment, even though there wasn't anything overt going on, people were being nice, etc. Thought of that.

very true - when I lived in Malta my 'best friend' was Maltese from a typically large family ranging from eldest ones who'd emigrated to Canada and Oz to 2 year old.

As an only one from a fairly typically English family I found the casual appropriation of each other's property very hard to understand and the ease with which I could be included at no notice at mealtimes (compared with my parents who needed NOTICE! - I suppose to be fair adding an extra portion when cooking for 3 is more hassle than when cooking Mediterranean pasta type dishes for 6-8 depending on who was there). The way that the 'baby' of a family was allowed to get away with murder and the previous 'baby' pushed out upset me - I always shared my chocolate with the 6 year old - friend and her sisters would always give small treats to the the 2/3 year old but not to her next sibling up. On the other hand I realised how nice it would be at times to have sisters so near in age to share with/borrow from/go out with. Their attitudes were very very different and I had the same slightly disorientated feeling as you describe.

Yeah. Then again I had that too when I went to visit my (Jewish) grandma with my (Jewish) dad -- they had these horrible screaming fights that I'd do my best to broker and then the next day they'd be best friends and I'd be like whaaa...? Jewish culture is "home" to me, it's the culture I'm most comfortable with, but at the same time I know that I'm not fully of the culture. (Not saying that screaming fights ARE the culture..! But I'd always feel a little out of place on those visits, my dad would relax into his Jewish upbringing, it was an all-Jewish condo [seriously, EVERYONE I ever saw there were transplanted New York Jews], and I was treated as if I understood things that I didn't always understand. Felt very Midwestern and Methodist when I was there.)

In a way I had a lot of that feeling as we moved around in my childhood (lived abroad twice) and different areas had different ideas of correct social behaviour etc. I was frequently the 'foreigner'


The screaming fights - oh yes my Maltese friends families! High drama lots of shouting and hand waving and then sudden peace! no grudges just all over. Prepared me for marrying an Irish man - though the Celts do hold a grudge!

Yes, unfortunately that is true. In my opinion this is simply a counter-reaction to racism and is as unfortunate as the problem from which it occurs.



How horrible! (the event that you're describing, not the fact that you're saying it). This means that this couple was completely restricted in the way they acted by the mere fact of their parentage and ethnic background to the degree where their behaviour was completely predictable. Their background brainwashed them and forced their personalities into a mould. To me that is a horrifying thought.

Then again, perhaps that's just me...



Mmmm, to me that's sort of good and sort of bad depending on how it's done.

Let's imagine Bodhan is a young polish boy whose parents bring him along to the polish club and guess what. He doesn't like the music, he finds that he's terrible at the dancing and he just feels out of place there. Then let's say his irish girlfriend brings him along to the irish club. He discovers that he really likes the irish music and dancing so takes that up. Later on a friend of his takes him to the somalian club and he discovers that he likes the social atmosphere so starts hanging around there from time to time.

If opportunities like that are available to him then that is absolutely wonderful. But if his parents start complaining when he refuses to go to the polish club or the irish make him feel unwelcome at their club then that's terrible. Cultures should never be closed off to outsiders, nor lock their own insiders within.

I -LOVE- cultures. It's fantastic that we have so many of them around us but the assumption that the culture we pick up has to be that of our parents/family/partners even friends to me seems damaging. The ideal situation of multicultaralism is that each culture brings its traditions, language, religions, food, clothing, dances, etc into mainstream culture and then people can take up the elements that fit their own true personality.

To me nothing is more wonderful than a japanese guy who loves italian impressionist painting. Not because he hates his own culture but because in searching through all the things that every culture around him has to offer he's found the one thing that truely makes him happy.

Pride in your own race's culture is okay I suppose, but it limits people to the realisation that the human race is one species and that it has thousands of wonderful cultures inside it.

they are mainly quite welcoming - I have a friend who is married to someone from Antigua and she is totally accepted at the Afro Caribbean club, takes part in the carnival, has learnt to plait hair into highly stylised corn rows and is very happy mixing her own and her husband's culture. Her son is brought up to know both and is happy in both.

I used to go to keep fit classes at a Polish club with an English friend who married a Pole

There is racism, nowhere is perfect, but generally speaking my city is about the most racially tolerant in the country. They did a survey receently to see if the attitude to moslem kids at school had changed since 9/11 and the Iraq war - here the kids said not at all, they were happy and integrated, elsewhere they felt there was a change.

Fantastic. What you described sounds wonderful. I think that's what multiculturalism is all about.


That's a relief.

Having said that, perceptions do change a little - shortly after 9/11 I went down to London by train. In the waiting room was an elderly moslem gentleman in traditional clothes, reading what I imagine was a very old and treasured leather bound copy of the Koran and rocking.

Normally that would have just passed me by but I did look and think ....mmmm hope this isn't a suicide bomber, reading the Koran for the last time with a bomb in that bag! We smiled at each other and the journey was uneventful!

It's a case of not blaming the whole for the abominations of the few - we had it with Northern Ireland with 2 factions claiming to be Christian, who thought nothing of bombing and killing each other in the name of that religion - you can't condemn a religion worldwide for the actions of the few.

Behaving according to the culture you were brought up in is not restricting your "true personality" - in fact, since that initial culture is so much a part of who you are, it's difficult to even say if you have a "true" personality" that isn't made up only of that. But it's not quite as black and white as a "Jewish" culture that's universally experienced the same way by every person - all Jews may have had similar experiences growing up, but it still leaves plenty of room for agency, or if you like, personality. Before you go saying it's reverse racism, you should look at your own culture. How often do you purposefully do something that's a little alien to the way you were brought up in liu of something that feels more natural? It's not a response to racism, it's a facet of being human.

Racism is simply fear.