3
   

Is France "stingy"?

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 07:18 pm
Well, Bill, I'm sure you're right about the longer history and the general human nature behind the thing, but I can only say - "PC police" sneers aside - that I've been stunned by the sheer and sudden volume of anti-French vitriol thats been washing over us, here at A2K for example, this past year. I for one had never seen anything like it before. You people did absolutely not need a PC police to put that "center stage" - you did that all by yourself, thread after thread after thread. The only country thats bitched at more often than France around here is, well, America. <heh>. (But tho I've railed against some of the madness in that from time to time too, I already explained above how at least, there, I can more easily imagine what fires it, rationally or irrationally.)

Anyway, here's one to appease you American patriots (hey, I'm from Old Europe, I'm an appeaser, remember?) - today's editorial from The Independent, yes, that lefty (well, kinda) newspaper from Britain. It's a thought-provoking take - and hey, I had to go buy it for you, 'k, a pound it cost me yeah?:

Quote:
George Bush understood that this global disaster also offered a global opportunity

The Independent
Leading Article
03 January 2005

Politicians as a breed tend to enjoy more than their fair share of good fortune, and George W Bush is surely more fortunate than most. Pitted against a lacklustre opponent, he was re-elected convincingly despite leading his country into a misguided war. But much of a politician's good fortune is of his own making and George Bush is no slouch in this department either. Quicker than many national leaders to grasp the scale of the Asian disaster - though slower than many of his fellow-countrymen would have liked - he also grasped that the tsunami presented the United States with an unheralded opportunity.

The results are before us. The Bush White House is in the midst of a formidable exercise in re-branding. Images of the US Air Force bombing Fallujah and other rebellious Iraqi cities have been replaced on our screens with scenes of a US flotilla sailing peaceably across the Indian Ocean, packed with amphibious vehicles and live-saving aid. Those notorious photographs of US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib are being superseded by clips of tough-but-tender American pilots concerned about landing their planes or helicopters for long enough to deliver the precious cargo of food and medicine. The "good GI" so familiar from all those Second World War films is making a 21st century comeback.

With the arrival in the region today of the outgoing Secretary of State, Colin Powell, at the head of a US delegation, the White House is sending another powerful message. This is a mission tailor-made for Mr Powell, who was always more comfortable wielding "soft" power than "hard"; it gives him a co-ordinating job that he could well keep after he ceases to head the State Department. Among the members of the group is also the President's brother, Jeb, the governor of Florida. Officially, he is there to contribute his experience of handling the aftermath of hurricanes in his home state. Loudly and clearly, however, his presence will demonstrate to the region that the President cares enough to send his own brother.

What a contrast, in practical and public relations terms, with the European Union's response, and that of the British government in particular. Although the exercise of "soft" power is supposed to be where Europeans excel, we have operated throughout this disaster for all practical purposes as separate countries. Relief operations, as opposed to the repatriation of nationals, seemed slow to start. In Britain, public sentiment has consistently raced far ahead of the official response. Ministers have scrambled to catch up, mostly - in the absence of the Prime Minister - without success. Mr Blair's first statement in person, an interview from his Egyptian holiday on Saturday evening, seemed strangely detached. "At first," he said, "it seemed a terrible disaster, a terrible tragedy. But I think as the days have gone on, people have recognised it as a global catastrophe." People? What people? His fellow Britons had understood within a day that this catastrophe was "global" and were flocking to make contributions.

In practical terms, Mr Blair may have been justified in stressing long-term considerations over immediate needs. But again, he was adrift. Had he not seen the footage, heard the harrowing accounts of the survivors? John Prescott and others were yesterday peppering their every utterance with references to the Prime Minister's almost hourly involvement in meetings and decisions. Our experience though, and not for the first time, is of a prime minister abroad and out of touch with the mood of his country. We recall his first, desperately inadequate, response to news of the death of the weapons expert, Dr David Kelly. Where is the popular touch of the man who so eloquently voiced this country's response to the death of the Princess of Wales?

All politics may be local, but where a disaster of this magnitude is concerned, politics are also global. George Bush understood that the US had a chance not only to help, but to be seen to be doing so in the eyes of the world. Mr Blair, for whatever reason, did not.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jan, 2005 07:26 pm
Lash wrote:
The Germans were against us re the war as well. What do you make of them not getting hardly any grief?

Yeah thats what I was asking about just now. American righties are all too eager to act like all of that Old Europe resistance against the Iraq war and the way America was going about it at the time was just those nasty Frenchies acting up again, for obviousy egocentric reasons (oil-for-food, geostrategy, whatever). But it wasnt just France, it was half of Europe.

So why was it all reduced to a conveniently French "piss-pole", as we call it? I dunno, cause thats easier? Easier to ridicule, caricature? Rouses less uncomfortable questions about the nature of the European resistance back then? Easier to belittle that way, or to reduce to ulterior motives (of which, admittedly, the French always had lots)?
0 Replies
 
gav
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jan, 2005 08:41 pm
nimh wrote:
The Independent
Leading Article
03 January 2005

Politicians as a breed tend to enjoy more than their fair share of good fortune, and George W Bush is surely more fortunate than most. Pitted against a lacklustre opponent, he was re-elected convincingly despite leading his country into a misguided war. But much of a politician's good fortune is of his own making and George Bush is no slouch in this department either. Quicker than many national leaders to grasp the scale of the Asian disaster - though slower than many of his fellow-countrymen would have liked - he also grasped that the tsunami presented the United States with an unheralded opportunity.

The results are before us. The Bush White House is in the midst of a formidable exercise in re-branding. Images of the US Air Force bombing Fallujah and other rebellious Iraqi cities have been replaced on our screens with scenes of a US flotilla sailing peaceably across the Indian Ocean, packed with amphibious vehicles and live-saving aid. Those notorious photographs of US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib are being superseded by clips of tough-but-tender American pilots concerned about landing their planes or helicopters for long enough to deliver the precious cargo of food and medicine. The "good GI" so familiar from all those Second World War films is making a 21st century comeback.

With the arrival in the region today of the outgoing Secretary of State, Colin Powell, at the head of a US delegation, the White House is sending another powerful message. This is a mission tailor-made for Mr Powell, who was always more comfortable wielding "soft" power than "hard"; it gives him a co-ordinating job that he could well keep after he ceases to head the State Department. Among the members of the group is also the President's brother, Jeb, the governor of Florida. Officially, he is there to contribute his experience of handling the aftermath of hurricanes in his home state. Loudly and clearly, however, his presence will demonstrate to the region that the President cares enough to send his own brother.

What a contrast, in practical and public relations terms, with the European Union's response, and that of the British government in particular. Although the exercise of "soft" power is supposed to be where Europeans excel, we have operated throughout this disaster for all practical purposes as separate countries. Relief operations, as opposed to the repatriation of nationals, seemed slow to start. In Britain, public sentiment has consistently raced far ahead of the official response. Ministers have scrambled to catch up, mostly - in the absence of the Prime Minister - without success. Mr Blair's first statement in person, an interview from his Egyptian holiday on Saturday evening, seemed strangely detached. "At first," he said, "it seemed a terrible disaster, a terrible tragedy. But I think as the days have gone on, people have recognised it as a global catastrophe." People? What people? His fellow Britons had understood within a day that this catastrophe was "global" and were flocking to make contributions.

In practical terms, Mr Blair may have been justified in stressing long-term considerations over immediate needs. But again, he was adrift. Had he not seen the footage, heard the harrowing accounts of the survivors? John Prescott and others were yesterday peppering their every utterance with references to the Prime Minister's almost hourly involvement in meetings and decisions. Our experience though, and not for the first time, is of a prime minister abroad and out of touch with the mood of his country. We recall his first, desperately inadequate, response to news of the death of the weapons expert, Dr David Kelly. Where is the popular touch of the man who so eloquently voiced this country's response to the death of the Princess of Wales?

All politics may be local, but where a disaster of this magnitude is concerned, politics are also global. George Bush understood that the US had a chance not only to help, but to be seen to be doing so in the eyes of the world. Mr Blair, for whatever reason, did not.
[/quote]

Nimh, that article is hardly surprising though is it? Honestly? The Bush Admin response to the "stingy" remark was VERY predictable. What the US has put into the relief effort since, however, is of HUGE help to the countries affected. They have pledges millions AND put feet on the ground. However, because it is Dubya, many will just view this as political maneuvering...as I do. I'm sick of his f**king crocodile tears!!!
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jan, 2005 10:27 pm
Twain/Clemens was a SATIRIST and a humorist... but satire and humor is subjective to the interpretation of the audience.
If the audience is too dull-witted or ignorant to 'get' the point, is it the fault of the author?

Why should it be the muscle-headed goons that get to be the arbiters of Culture?

That's "right", because if you don't allow them to do so, they'll hurt you!

Feral dog packs all jockeying for Alpha Male status... if THAT's what our civilization has come to... may they choke on their prey!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 12:23 am
It's odd - I heard the "stingy" remarks the other night on television.

They were addressed to the rich nations in general. That is a lot of countries. I do not see why the US should have felt especially affronted or picked on.

I certainly did not think of any one country when I heard the fella speak (he was clearly very emotional at the time - I guess he was a lot more aware of what was happening than most of us were?) I just saw it as a person feeling overwhelmed and helpless in the face of the catastrophe - and the problems of starvation and so on generally, being a tad unpolitic in his speech.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 09:59 am
That's a point I was trying to get across earlier in the thread, dlowan, but to no avail. We really are quite predictably competitive.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 10:04 am
Was someone claiming the remark about "stingy" was directed at the US only? I understand it was addressed to the rich countries, and said as much in my initial post.

Tico wrote:
U.N. muckety-muck Jan Egeland recently claimed that the US and other "rich" Western nations are "stingy" when it comes to providing money for humanitarian crises. He has now claimed his comment has been "misinterpreted."
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 10:19 am
No, Tico, you very carefully did not indicate that the remarks were only about the US. But it seems like there is a pretty widespread misunderstanding of the fact that the comments were not only made before the disaster, and therefore not regarding countries' contributions to the tsunami victims, but that they were made about all western countries and not just the US (including France).

Lash wrote:
Some UN **** started criticising countries for not giving enough before anyone had a decent chance to react. What has followed has been a parody of the ridiculous penny-counting insanity that has erupted since that statement.


McG's article wrote:
The widely different mentality comes to the fore in the wake of the comments by U.N. emergency relief coordinator Jan Egeland that the initial U.S. response to aiding the victims was "stingy."


JustWonders wrote:
When that Egelund creep made his "stingy" comments (which he later tried to soften), he didn't use the words "stingy" and "Australia" in the same sentence. No, he singled out the U.S. and THAT is what some of us are reacting to on THIS thread.


It's also clear from many on this thread that the comment was taken as an insult to the US and thus the 'who's charity dick is bigger' contest.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:07 pm
What Freeduck saisd, Tico - and I think some whipped themselves up into a kind of frenzy in some places about it - thinking the US had been insulted. I am from a rich country, and I had no problem with what the poor man said - so I don't know why anyone would get ariegated with him for any reason - as I said, he looked distraught and exhausted. I haven't re-read your posts, but I do seem to recall lots of abuse directed at the man - don't recall who by, particularly.

Yes - I know you tried to raise reality, FreeDuck - it was just that, seeing and hearing what was said, made me surprised about all the rantan.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:11 pm
I don't think it's a contest at all. The US has always come through with humanitarian aide.

I find it interesting that the UN muckety mucks never comment on the amount fellow Muslim countries have given towards their brothers. Do you know how much Syria and Iran have combined totals of for relief?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:18 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Do you know how much Syria and Iran have combined totals of for relief?


I don't - and I don't of about 170 more countries as well.

A lot have said so already before: this isn't a 'who-is-giving-the-most-aid-olympic-game'!
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:22 pm
last i heard, the saudis and the kuwaitis were pretty stingy in their commitments, but maybe it has changed by now. hbg
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:28 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Do you know how much Syria and Iran have combined totals of for relief?

You mean Iran that's still smarting from the wrecking earthquake that just about destroyed a whole city there just last year?

I read this week that of the many millions of dollars pledged in emergency relief and reconstruction by the rich countries back then, only something like 20% actually ever was given ... Shocked

... but better not let some UN person say something about that, before you know it he'll be made out for all kinds of things that A2K turns into stars again ...
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:29 pm
"The US has always come through with humanitarian aid"...?

What a broad (and self-serving) statement!
Pat yourself on the back much?

Trumpeting and strutting one's charitable accomplishments only diminishes them... it is ignoble and narcissistic.
Accolades should be unsolicited... and come from external sources.
I can recall when athletes did NOT spike the ball after every touchdown, or hang from the rim after every basket... Ii miss those days before Crowing and Grandstanding became de rigeur.

(Thinking back, we DID give Viet Nam "Military Advisors", megatons of Agent Orange, ordnance and Napalm; not to mention buckets of blood... all to prevent the predictions of that dreaded "Domino Theory"! )
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:30 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Do you know how much Syria and Iran have combined totals of for relief?


I don't - and I don't of about 170 more countries as well.

A lot have said so already before: this isn't a 'who-is-giving-the-most-aid-olympic-game'!


I know, it's about how isn't giving enough... That's what this is all about isn't it? Countries like Iran, Syria, N. Korea, etc... are a pox upon the globe. Everyone knows it. They serve no purpose other than to create chaos and kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people every year. The administrations of those countries need to be changed so the people of those countries can at last experience freedom. If that can be done internally awesome, otherwise external stimuli may be needed. If the UN will not create that impetus, then the US may need to.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:30 pm
Here's one take on that:
(From http://www.juancole.com/ - which is a site clearl with its own agenda - so I do not know if the figures are absolutely accurate - a friend sent the url to me, and I haven't had time to try and assess it for accuracy generally - still, kinda interesting - and I bet someone WILL look it all up now!)


"Somebody named John Farmer has picked up this meme and run with it. Farmer has even less excuse, since he was mouthing off after much more information was available.

As of 1/1, Reuters was reporting these responses to the tsunami from Middle Eastern countries:

--Qatar, $25 million
--Saudi Arabia, $10 million
--Kuwait, $2.1 million
--Algeria, $2 million
--Libya, $2 million
--UAE, $2 million
--Turkey, $1.25 million

I have suggested before that if you want to compare the donations, you can't do it in terms of absolute numbers. You have to look at the population of the country and at its per capita income.

The announced Saudi contribution of $10 million is probably about $0.66 cents a citizen on a per capita basis (I don't think the Saudi citizen population can possibly be over 15 million no matter what Riyadh says). The second US offer of $35 million was about 12 cents per person. Since US per capita income is approximately 4.5 times that of Saudi Arabia ($8500 Atlas method), however, the Saudi contribution should be seen as about $3.00 per citizen on a US scale, with regard to the real per capita burden. So the Saudi was a generous initial offer in comparison to that of the US.

The USG is now pledging about $1.19 cents per person ($350 million).

The Qatar offer of $25 million is about $250 per citizen.

The Kuwait offer of $2 million is $2.00 per citizen or $1.00 per person if guest workers are counted. Either way, it is comparable to the US offer on a per capita basis, and Kuwaiti per capita income is about half that of Americans. So any way you cut it, the Kuwaitis are not being chintzy unless you want to say Americans are moreso.

The Libyans are giving about $0.36 per person, and their per capita income (purchasing power parity method) is a little over $6,000. That is about 1/7 of the US per capita income, so their contribution burdens the Libyans the same way a roughly $2.50 per person contribution would burden Americans. Remember, the USG is currently giving a little over a dollar a person.

The Turks have offered 18 cents a person. But their per capita income is only about $3000 per year, or a tenth that of an average American, so this plege is equivalent to an American one of $1.80. That is, the Turks are giving one and a half times what Americans are" if everything is taken into account.

The current Australian pledge of $60 million is about $3.00 per person.

It is obvious that if we take their populations and actual per capita income into account, the offers made by many of these governments are generally more generous than that of the United States. A lot of Middle Eastern countries have small populations, so even if they gave a lot per capita, it would look small in absolute numbers. Apparently US pundits don't know things like the citizen population of Kuwait or the per capita income of Libya, and can't be bothered to look them up.

The Organization of the Islamic Conference (the foreign ministers of Muslim-majority countries) is offering to coordinate aid from the area, and is calling for Muslim countries to give the utmost.

And, civil society organizations are also swinging into action in places like Qatar.

What explains this misplaced American high dudgeon? Petroleum wealth seems often to be coded by Americans as undeserved and also as automatically making people rich. But this impression is exaggerated. Petroleum probably only accounts for about a fourth of Libya's gross domestic product. And the Saudi per capita income of about $8,500 per person per year (Atlas method) compares poorly to the US average of $38,000 per year per person. (And remember, these are averages and since both countries have a lot of billionnaires, ordinary people actually make much less). Americans don't seem to understand that on an average they are several times richer than the average Saudi.

It is particularly unfair to blame Kuwait, which has a reputation of doing great, professional little development projects in Africa and elsewhere, and which is still recovering from Saddam's brutal occupation and sabotage. Since Tucker Carlson thought the recent Iraq war was so great, isn't he grateful to Kuwait for allowing itself to be used as the launching pad? What does an Arab country have to do to get a break from the US talking heads? Sue to become the 51st state?

I wonder if Gelb or Carlson will ever apologize to the Kuwaitis and Saudis (or whoever "they" are, who are "cheap"), and whether their incorrect statements will ever be retracted."
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:32 pm
while we are at it : any interest in changing the "administration" of saudi-arabia ? any action on that front ? hbg
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:36 pm
Putting the contributions in perspective?

How unpatriotic!

It undermines every effort to propagandize and capitalize upon the situation!

SHAMEFUL!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:42 pm
dlowan gave me the idea to search at Aljazeera.Net:
Quote:
Wednesday 05 January 2005, 21:53 Makka Time, 18:53 GMT
After growing criticism of the Middle East oil kingdoms' lack of response to the tsunami disaster, several Arabian Gulf governments have made large monetary donations.

The increase in aid from countries such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates came only after a debate over whether governments were damaging their image by failing to make donations.

Oil-rich Gulf Arab states, home to millions of Asian workers, have so far pledged $70 million to victims of the Asian tsunami disaster despite reaping seven times as much in crude revenues daily.

[...]

Kuwait may have raised its aid pledge from $1 million to $10 million, but this "still is a humble amount compared to the magnitude of the catastrophe," Shamlan al-Issa wrote in the daily As-Siyassah.

Competitive aid

Australia on Wednesday led the table of major governmental pledges -- including loans and grants-- by promising $ 764 million. It was followed by Germany's $668 million, Japan's $500 million and the United States' $350 million.

What is shaping up as one of the largest aid efforts in history has so far raised between two and three billion dollars, according to the United Nations.

Jan Egeland, the UN's emergency relief coordinator, cautioned that nations must live up to their public pledges when the time comes to pay up.

"Come with the money you pledge," Egeland said, recalling the Bam earthquake in Iran at the end of 2003 which got significant promises of help, many of which were never received.

Saudi Arabia, the world's top oil exporter, started with a pledge of $10 million before announcing on Tuesday that it was tripling that amount and organising a telethon to raise more funds.

Added to Kuwait's $10 million, the United Arab Emirates' $20 million and gas-rich Qatar's $10 million, the total pledges by the four oil producers reached $70 million, compared to some $500 million a day in oil revenues.

[...]
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:44 pm
dlowan wrote:
What does an Arab country have to do to get a break from the US talking heads? Sue to become the 51st state?

LOL
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Islamic Terrorists Strike France - Discussion by hawkeye10
France Launches Airstrikes in Mali - Discussion by H2O MAN
ALLONS ENFANTS . . . - Discussion by Setanta
What is Christmas like in France? - Discussion by DrewDad
Carla Bruni Blasts Berlusconi's Obama Remark - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
Riots in France - Discussion by Finn dAbuzz
A surprise? French Socialists pro EU-constitution - Discussion by Walter Hinteler
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Is France "stingy"?
  3. » Page 20
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 12/26/2024 at 06:53:17