Is France "stingy"?

If such really is published in US schoolbooks, I'm ashamed to have studied history.

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Lash wrote:

Francis knows it's not personal. I'm just wondering why you haven't similarly soothed the Americans, who's country is besmirched, maligned and accused of all manner of hideous things...

This is the definition of bias.
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Well, Lash, since it is mainly other Americans on this board who "besmirch and malign" etc, I figure you guys can deal with a lot of it yourselves - not sure that I always want to get into your internal squabble.

As for Francis - I am not privy to his inner emotional states - and when I see an almost lone person of a nationality being subjected to frequent idiocies such as much of this - and a number of other threads - I think it reasonable to offer a word of solidarity.

Right wing Americans who feel maligned by other Americans here appear to have a support group.

I might add that, when I have seen fellow Australians make what I see as attacks on the US as stupid as the attacks on France here, I have commented similarly to them

However, as I say occasionally when such attacks as yours are made, I often do comment on the similar stupidity of the similarly rabidly and irrationally hating American left left. I do not expect people such as yourself to listen, however, so I won't bother saying it to you again.

Have yourself a nice new year, Lash.

Edit: Francis - I appear to have attempted to alter your gender!!! Many apologies.

Bill - I hope you are correct that Francis does not mind.

How come you guys do when similar pleasant and funny things are said about your country, BTW? It is all in good humour, it seems. Can't you guys take a joke? Sounds like the American right is getting a little PC? Well, I have said for ages that you are - but hey - guys - it's all just fun.

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Quote:

$2bn pledged, but will the world keep its promises?

· UN warns west could renege on aid
· Chaotic relief efforts with 125,000 dead, 5m homeless

John Vidal and Jamie Wilson
Monday January 3, 2005
The Guardian

The United Nations yesterday warned that huge promises of aid from rich countries to the Asia tsunami crisis might not be fulfilled as some countries use dubious methods to appear more generous than they really are.
Charities and international bodies say they fear that much of the money pledged so far to help the emergency in southern Asia may not materialise because governments traditionally renege on their humanitarian pledges.

Last night the death toll stood at more than 125,000, although the exact tally will probably never be known. More than 5 million people have been left homeless.

More than a week after the disaster, most countries in the region have given up the search for survivors to concentrate on burying the dead.

But in Banda Aceh, the province of Indonesia closest to the epicentre of the earthquake, a 24-year-old fisherman, Tengku Sofyan, was found trapped but alive underneath his boat after being tossed on to the beach when the tsunami hit.

According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), which is leading the response to the disaster, the amount promised by countries and international banks stood last night at just under $2bn (£1.1bn) after a verbal pledge at the weekend of $500m by the Japanese prime minister and $530m from the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank.

But UN OCHA spokesman, Robert Smith, told the Guardian: "We should be very cautious about these figures. Let's put it this way. Large-scale disasters tend to result in mammoth pledges which... do not always materialise in their entirety. The figures look much higher than they really are. What will end up on the ground will be much less."

Rudolf Muller, also of UN OCHA, said: "There is definitely double accounting going on. A lot of the money will be swallowed up by the military or will have been been diverted from existing loans."

A spokesman for the Overseas Development Institute, Britain's leading aid analysts, said: "The research evidence is that the immediate response to natural disasters involves some new money, but that rehabilitation needs are often met by switching aid money between uses rather than increasing total aid to the countries affected."

The disparity between government promises and the delivery of emergency and rehabilitation aid can be extreme. Iranian government officials working to rebuild Bam, destroyed by an earthquake exactly a year before the Asian tsunami, last week said that of $1.1bn aid promised by foreign countries and organisations only $17.5m had been sent.

Similarly, more than $400m was pledged by rich countries to help rebuild Mozambique after floods in 2000, but according to its public works minister, less than half was delivered.

The worst example was Hurricane Mitch, which in 1998 swept through Honduras and Nicaragua, killing more than 9,000 people and making 3 million homeless. Governments pledged more than $3.5bn and the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the EU promised a further $5.2bn, but less than a third of the money was ever raised.

Similarly, emergencies in Gujarat, Bangladesh and central America in the past three years have mostly not received all the money promised. The humanitarian emergency in Afghanistan attracted more than $700m of pledges, but less than half that has been sent. Of the $100bn promised for debt relief, only $400m was received.

Last night a spokesman for the US Agency for International Development could give no breakdown between civilian and military expenditures. But the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, indicated that the cost of military logistics were not included in the $350m pledge.

Britain's promised £50m to the Asian reconstruction funds will not come out of other aid budgets, the international development secretary, Hilary Benn, stressed last night. It will come from his department's contingency funds.

There was also concern that the Asia crisis would inevitably draw money from other emergencies.

Jasmine Whitbread, international director at Oxfam, said: "We are concerned that humanitarian aid could be sucked from other crises such as Sudan and Congo where the needs are just as great. Pledges to the tsunami victims must be new money and not taken from the people in other crises."

Source

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Maybe, dlowan, you can point out all the similarly pleasant and fun things said about the US that I objected to? Of course, all things being equal, the poster would have to identify their comment as a joke--and I would have to continue bitching about it.

Otherwise, you need to admit you are just blowing smoke.

If you can find such, I will never tease about France here again. (Not a small ante on my part.)If you don't--and I'm betting you won't, you should admit you are full of bullshit on this point.
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How come you guys do when similar pleasant and funny things are said about your country, BTW? It is all in good humour, it seems. Can't you guys take a joke? Sounds like the American right is getting a little PC? Well, I have said for ages that you are - but hey - guys - it's all just fun.
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...and that you knew you were when you said it.

Well?

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dlowan wrote:

Well, Lash, since it is mainly other Americans on this board who "besmirch and malign" etc, I figure you guys can deal with a lot of it yourselves - not sure that I always want to get into your internal squabble.

Pretty much. Plus, the anti-French thing is just so much more puzzling. I mean, anti-Americanism can still be reasonably explained, one way or another. America is, undeniable fact, by far the most powerful country in the world. And it uses its power - military, economic, cultural - in ways that affect people worldwide in dominating, at times violent ways. Sometimes for the better, like when you go save a continent from fascism (Europe, WW2), sometimes for the worse, like when you help fascist dictatorships get/keep in power across half a continent (Latin America in the 70s/80s). Either way, high trees catch a lot of wind as we say here. Affecting other peoples' lives in such high-impact ways, whether good or bad, is going to provoke resentment, jealousy, feelings of powerlessness, as well as admiration, imitation, and gratefulness.

But in return, what the hell did the French ever do to you? I just cant fathom it. Only thing I can come up with is that the last time you decided to go on a war half the world didnt want, they refused to join up, and spoke up about it. And? So? What is this -- "True friendship is ... sacrificing your soldiers' lives in whatever war your friend chooses to start (even if it doesnt ever take your opinion into account), no matter how stupid or senseless a war you think it is?" Friendship is ... submitting to any idea of ours, not that we're ever gonna modify the idea because of anything you think ...?

You act like France committed the most lowlife form of betrayal, when all it did was oppose a war it disagreed with, and stand by its position no matter what you said or did to make it change its mind. And? Thats pretty good for a country that you make out to be ever cowardly and opportunistic, right?

Dontgetit,probablyneverwill.

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I tried to find a bit in the way of explanation for those who continue to incorrectly assert that our 'relationship' with the French went sour over the Iraq War.

Here, sort of concisely packed together are a few items:

Our Rocky Relationship With France
From Jeffrey Gedmin:

France sided with the Confederacy during the Civil War. Vichy French troops fought American soldiers in North Africa in World War II. During the Cold War Charles de Gaulle did everything he could to weaken NATO. In 1986, François Mitterrand denied U.S. warplanes permission to fly over French airspace on the way to Libya--a decision that added six or seven hours of flight time for American pilots retaliating against Tripoli for a Berlin bombing that had killed American servicemen. President Reagan remarked that "France conducted a lot of business with Libya and was typically trying to play both sides." Then there was Iraq.

It is positively amusing to hear John Kerry argue that George W. Bush single-handedly spoiled our relations with "Old Europe." The relations were never smooth in the first place. Even Benjamin Franklin, a celebrity in Paris when he later served as ambassador there, contended with the French, who "murder and scalp our farmers," as he put it, and claim "parts of the British territory as they find most convenient." In his time, Mark Twain bridled over French claims of superiority. "I can't describe to you," Twain wrote to a friend, "how poor & empty & offensive France is." FDR told Churchill in 1943 that de Gaulle had proved to be "unreliable, uncooperative, and disloyal to both governments." Truman would later call de Gaulle a "psychopath."

Of course, the French have had a disagreeable word or two to say about us along the way. French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau contended that "America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization." This was a century ago, long before a farmer named Jose Bove would become a French folk hero for leading a gang attack on a French McDonald's--with a pickax. Good luck to Mr. Kerry if he ever gets a chance to charm Old Europe.
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Completely seperate from France disagreeing with our plans for Iraq--which they had a right to do-- is the spectre of WHY they disagreed.

But, we'll wait until the OilForFood scandal is sorted out.

They have hated us and held us in distain for decades. We've just decided to return the favor.

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Amazing.

More amazing the generalisation "they" - responses before, Francis at least was excluded.

I mean, however, what can you expect from those, who revolted against their by grace of God ruler once?

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Francis has been excluded from all the comments.

You must not have read the article...

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dlowan wrote:

Bill - I hope you are correct that Francis does not mind.

She seemed to be quite okay with it when she wrote this.

Francis wrote:

Lash, for the fun see this link :

Bashing the french

Then later when somebody double checked that she was okay with the humor; she said; "you guys are fine."

dlowan wrote:

How come you guys do when similar pleasant and funny things are said about your country, BTW? It is all in good humour, it seems. Can't you guys take a joke? Sounds like the American right is getting a little PC? Well, I have said for ages that you are - but hey - guys - it's all just fun.

I laugh at the jokes against anyone, including the US and myself without hesitation, D. I too challenge you to find me reacting badly to "similar pleasant and funny things are said about your country." I'll be shocked if you can find a single instance.

Btw, no fair editing, I almost missed that.

Nimh: That link Francis provided above may shed some actual light on the subject.

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Well, in contrast to what happened on the North American continent a couple centuries ago, the French replaced a king with an emperor - as it turns out, prolly not the best of moves.

All and all, and this is just a personal take, I figure most Americans who disparage France the French are motivated by a perceived ingratitude, along with a sense of wholly unwarranted arrogance, while most French who disparage America and Americans are motivated by jealousy, envy, and distrust born out a wholly warranted perception of accomplishment-backed arrogance.

And anyone who thinks its all been peachy-keen between France - and "Old Europe" besides - and The US up untill recently must notta been payin' attention.

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Ticomaya wrote:

nimh wrote:
... I hear the French just sent a small fleet of navy ships to help out

... France has a military?

Someone has to be there to surrender... Laughing

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Didnt get to finish that thought cause I had to run to the kitchen ... admittedly just an associative kinda thought, but still ...

I mean, its kinda like, America is the jock of the class - the hero or the bully, depending on how you look at it. That he's gonna breed some resentment is kinda par of the course (or how do you say that). But now its like the jock, himself, is getting all resentful - because one of the kids in the class didnt wanna take part in his last game! That seems oddly childish of the big guy - more like a spoiled kid who gets all upset when he doesnt get his way.

Worse, it reconfirms our biggest fears about America right now - that not just does it wield unparallelled power - but its vindictive about it, too.

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On a serious note; who flips the bill for all the overtime the PC Police put in?

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nimh--

You must be purposely avoiding all the posts that describe the long term past.

The jock ran across the playground and out in the street to rescue France, and France tried to kill him. Then, the jock's dog was caught in barbed wire in Libya's yard, and France made the jock run around his yard to get to his dog. The dog got a nasty infection as a result.

Even though the jock has been helpful to France, and stood up to bullies for him, France is an utter asshole to the jock. He's rude to the jock's family, and actually acts condescendingly to the jock.

The jock realises his physique can make homely, weak boys jealous, but the jock ain't gonna stop workin out to make the puny effete feel more like a man. Hell, let him get some fuckin barbells.

Its enough to put a kink in a relationship, wouldn't you say?

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Lash wrote:

Here, sort of concisely packed together are a few items:

Our Rocky Relationship With France
From Jeffrey Gedmin:

Vichy French troops fought American soldiers in North Africa in World War II.

... But De Gaulle's Free French fought alongside them.

Lash wrote:

During the Cold War Charles de Gaulle did everything he could to weaken NATO.

... from the inside, apparently, considering France did actually remain a NATO member throughout the Cold War. Can anyone imagine what it would have done to NATO or the US position in Europe if it had opted out and joined the league of non-aligned countries ...? It would have been devastating.

Lash wrote:

In 1986, François Mitterrand denied U.S. warplanes permission to fly over French airspace on the way to Libya

... in a punitive exercise that was beyond any international legal framework. See Iraq - the logic apparently being: hey, we're gonna flaunt all the rules and bomb some place even tho noone really agrees with us much about it - and if you dont help us out on our way, you're the bad guy.

I mean, taking these last two examples together, the author is basically saying, although France was an ally of the US against the Soviet Union, it wasnt in fact an unconditional ally - and this is enough reason to demonize it like it is now by American rightists? God help us if thats the attitude of the hegemonic power in our world today ... (see post above).

Lash wrote:

It is positively amusing to hear John Kerry argue that George W. Bush single-handedly spoiled our relations with "Old Europe." The relations were never smooth in the first place.

"Old Europe" was Rumsfeld's nickname for all the European countries that opposed the US on Iraq, right? Not just France, but Germany, Belgium, the Scandinavian countries, Austria ...

How were those relations "never smooth in the first place" before Bush went wrecking transatlantic diplomacy? Wasn't West-Germany about the most US-loyal ally in Europe throughout the Cold War?

Lash wrote:

They have hated us and held us in distain for decades. We've just decided to return the favor.

See above metaphor of jock vs other kids ... Somehow, the little kids resenting the big jock has a different effect from the jock suddenly turning around and going all indignant because one of the little kids doesnt want to play along.

Anyway - historical retrospectives aside - does anyone actually remember any of this anti-French vitriol from A2K or Abuzz or whereever, before the Iraq war issue came up? It's fine to dig up old Twain quotes to illustrate distant forebears to the current ridiculers, but we can probably find such quotes from any people about any other people in the 19th century. Anyone seriously maintain that this is not a thing that suddenly came up with a vengeance last spring? Even Lash admits it by noting that Americans are now "just deciding to return the favour" ... well, I can tell you, Americans aint too loved in eh, Sweden either. What'll be next, a barrage of American anti-Swedish vitriol?

No concept of "noblesse oblige" in the States, apparently ...

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Lash wrote:

nimh--

You must be purposely avoiding all the posts that describe the long term past.

No its just I'm responding with a time lag cause I'm trying to make muffins at the same time. (Hence the "Didnt get to finish that thought cause I had to run to the kitchen", you know.) Raspberry muffins they were to have been - a recipe originally meant for new years eve, but I'd made/gotten way too much food then already, so they were left un-created still. Thought I'd make up now.

Alas, as I found out when I'd already made the muffin batter and the batter for the crunchy top layer, the raspberries were mouldy by now. So they're raspberryless raspberry-muffins now. No idea whether they're still gonna be good. Pity tho - I'd wanted to take them to work tomorrow, first working day of the new year. But I dunno whether raspberryless raspberry-muffins are good enough for that.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

On a serious note; who flips the bill for all the overtime the PC Police put in?

You mean all this indignation about what is said about Americans that shouldnt be said because its not nice and unfair and ungrateful, what, with everything you've done for those ingrate Europeans, and just shouldnt be said - stuff like that? Or do you mean all the PC whining about how Christian conservatives, or white American males, or heartland red-staters, are always unfairly portrayed or marginalised or how just any liberal can say anything about them in the media and its all a shame? Or more like the lamenting about how people say stuff that shouldnt be said because, you know, in war-time, its unpatriotic to say that kind of thing and by the way, phooey, you dont talk about our Commander in Chief like that, whatever happened to proper respect for the office - they shouldnt allow that kind of thing? You mean all that kind of politically correct crap? I dont know, you tell me?

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It's called r-a-c-i-s-m.

See, they can make their little snide jokes, excuse one person specifically and present from the group of people they're joking about from their jokes (thinking that makes it OK, "just harmless fun"), puff up with indignation when the shoe is on the other foot, and keep carrying on like there's no end in sight, laughing at themselves, clapping each other on the back, posting a few emoticons...

Substitute any other nationality for 'French' in what they say-- here, let's make this simple:

African.

(And now, get ready for the loudest howling you ever heard.) Cool

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PDiddie wrote:

It's called r-a-c-i-s-m.

See, they can make their little snide jokes, excuse one person specifically and present from the group of people they're joking about from their jokes (thinking that makes it OK, "just harmless fun"), puff up with indignation when the shoe is on the other foot, and keep carrying on like there's no end in sight, laughing at themselves, clapping each other on the back, posting a few emoticons...

Substitute any other nationality for 'French' in what they say-- here, let's make this simple:

African.

(And now, get ready for the loudest howling you ever heard.)

African?

How about Egyptian instead? That was we can concentrate on a country instead of a continent.

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nimh wrote:

Anyway - historical retrospectives aside - does anyone actually remember any of this anti-French vitriol from A2K or Abuzz or whereever, before the Iraq war issue came up? It's fine to dig up old Twain quotes to illustrate distant forebears to the current ridiculers, but we can probably find such quotes from any people about any other people in the 19th century. Anyone seriously maintain that this is not a thing that suddenly came up with a vengeance last spring? Even Lash admits it by noting that Americans are now "just deciding to return the favour" ... well, I can tell you, Americans aint too loved in eh, Sweden either. What'll be next, a barrage of American anti-Swedish vitriol?

No concept of "noblesse oblige" in the States, apparently ...

Yes Nimh. I remember it vividly. The Iraq issue was certainly the catalyst that sent the mocking of the French into high gear, but its older than I am. All my life, the French are the cowards just as the Polish are stupid in jokes. (By the way PC Police, I'm part French, part Polish, and just about everything else you can name, so don't bother.) I assure you, here in the States, there is nothing new about making fun of the French. Ask your average American to do a French impersonation and they'll generally tilt their head back and be as snobby as humanly possible. Not new.

On a smaller scale, though just as heated, Wisconsin people go at it with Chicago folk. Cheesehead was supposed to be an insult from them... but obviously, it backfired. Cool

They're called Flatlanders or FIBs (F*ckin Illinois Bastards) as a matter of course. Their are a few idiots out there who take it seriously and seriously start trouble about it, but the vast majority participate because it's fun.

Most jokes need a butt to be funny. I have little doubt that America, the Bully, Jock, Whatever, is the butt of a Billion jokes worldwide. There's no doubt in my mind the question "what are you an American?" Has many different negative connotations in various places. But if it's in fun, who cares? At any rate, rest assured there is nothing new about bashing the French, just the frequency, and the fact that the PC police put it center stage a lot, so it garners tons more attention.

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...Is French a race?

Boy, PDiddie, that was a reach. I guess you were joking--it WAS funny.

Oh, and since the shoe has been on the other foot for quite some time, you are among those puffing up with indignation.

But, really.

Re the Swedes. Even if I was furious with them--which I'm not--they just haven't provided the world with nearly enough fodder for any decent humiliation...

The Germans were against us re the war as well. What do you make of them not getting hardly any grief?

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Is France "stingy"?

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