0
   

Is there room for Christmas anymore?:

 
 
Foxfyre
 
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 11:46 am
I am going to post the following in its entirety as the TNR (a true repository for intelligent liberalism) requires registration and some may not want to bother.

The thesis is simple though. Does political correctness and the effort to not annoy non-religious people require us to remove all things religious from Christmas in public? Has it gone overboard? Or is there still too much? If you are athiest or non-religious, do you really object to your child singing "Silent Night" in the school Christmas program? What do you think is the harm?

How Much Christ in Christmas?
by Michelle Cottle

Only at TNR Online

h, the holiday season: a magical time filled with peace, love, joy, and the annual litany of protests, boycotts, and threatened legal action over the degree of religious symbolism permissible in the public square.

Gone are the days when the hot debate was whether Santa or Jesus should be the posterboy for the season--and not just because most everyone has accepted commercialism as the American way. It's more that Santa and Jesus now find themselves on the same side, venerated symbols of a simpler time when December in America was all about Christmas--not Hanukkah, not Kwanzaa, and not some multicultural mishmash exemplified by the almost parodically generic "Season's Greetings."

This year, the traditionalists are reportedly even more exercised than usual, in part because they see W.'s reelection as a mandate to put Christianity--and with it, Christmas--back at center stage. The California-based Committee to Save Merry Christmas, for instance, has called for a boycott of Federated Department Stores (which ironically include Macy's, the chain whose role in the classic "Miracle on 34th Street" made it the retail embodiment of the holiday for millions of Americans) in response to the company's replacement of "Merry Christmas" signs with vaguer messages of "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays." The organization points boldly to November 2 as proof that such "political correctness is offending millions of Americans."

Similarly, a church in Raleigh, North Carolina, recently took out a full-page newspaper ad calling for Christians to shop only at stores whose holiday displays include the words "Merry Christmas." (The minister explained the move as part of a "revival" in which "right-minded people" are challenging the nation's "downward spiral to the left.") And down in Louisiana, a group in Terrebonne Parish is not only petitioning to have "Merry Christmas" added to the holiday display outside the main government building but is also selling in-your-face yard signs that read: "We believe in God. Merry Christmas."

It's tough to hear about such antics and not immediately think: What a bunch of nutters. For starters, the notion that anyone who doesn't celebrate Christmas is a godless leftist makes these folks look like total idiots desperately in need of a beginner's guide to Judaism and Islam. And why do traditionalists so often feel the need to ram their beliefs down everyone's throat? Christmas conservationists are free to fill their homes with gaudily garbed trees (my household typically has two) and sing "Silent Night" on the street corner until their voices fail. But why waste so much energy on a point of semantics? I mean, at this stage, you'd think serious Jesus fans would want to distance themselves from the tinsel-strewn retail vulgarity that Christmas has become.

Even so, I empathize completely with the urge to make this season about something more than shopping orgies and hellish travel. Truth be told, the holidays haven't been the same for me since I abandoned the biblical literalism of my upbringing. (Technically, the slide began when my Sunday School teacher spilled the ugly truth about Santa, but that's a trauma best left unprobed.) Sure, I can appreciate the season as a widely celebrated time of love and sharing and good will. But a more rational, multicultural spin on the holidays just doesn't pack the same gut-level oomph as, say, God becoming flesh to save mankind.

And let's face it, people crave that kind of oomph--magic and mysticism and a faith in some greater meaning and order to the universe. There's a reason nearly 80 percent of Americans believe in angels, and it's not that they're all backward, uneducated bumpkins. Relentless rationalism can be exhausting and depressing, not to mention as annoyingly dogmatic as any religion--only without the ancient symbolism and colorful mythology.

Moreover, it's hardly surprising that the Christmas crazies feel a need to go on the attack. For every traditionalist group looking to erect a crèche at the local Wal-Mart, there's a band of secularist or multicultural watchdogs trying to make sure no one anywhere ever feels the teensiest bit oppressed by the religiosity of the majority. Earlier this year, the Woodland, Illinois, school district moved to prohibit bus drivers from playing Christmas carols on the radio. In Denver, officials were poised to remove the "Merry Christmas" sign from the city's holiday display. In both cases, citizens protested until officials changed their minds. By contrast, in Maplewood, New Jersey, school officials are sticking by their decisions to ban any religious-themed carols--even instrumental versions--from holiday concerts. And at Freedom Elementary School in southern Florida, the holiday pageant has been replaced altogether with a patriotism-themed program. ("There are a lot of rules and regulations out there," the school principal told the local press. "You're trying to be respectful of everyone.") And forget nativity scenes: Even Christmas trees are a no-no in an increasing number of schools.

How sad. In an effort to acknowledge everyone's beliefs, we're creating a climate in which people are too paranoid to allow the expression of anyone's beliefs. Clearly this shouldn't be the case. The courts have already established that the way to handle the issue of religious expression isn't to banish Christmas trees from the public square but to ensure equal access for anyone who might be interested in displaying a menorah or the seven symbols of Kwanzaa or a 30-foot velvet poster of Elvis dressed as the angel Gabriel. (Well, maybe not that last one.)

Basically, everyone needs to unclench and have a cup of frigging eggnog. This is not a slippery-slope issue. A couple of carols sung on school grounds aren't going to lead to mandatory recitation of the Lord's Prayer in math class. And the occasional "Happy Holidays" sign won't open the door to a new era of stoning Christians.

At this point (and I cannot believe I'm saying this) one of the most rational voices on this issue comes from the hit TV series "The O.C." One of the main characters, who hails from an interfaith (Jewish-Protestant) family, has attempted to bridge the cultural gap by declaring a new holiday called Chrismukkah. (Related decorations include a Santa-inspired yarmulke delightfully dubbed a Yarmuclaus.) Stuffed shirts from both the Christian and Jewish communities have huffily objected. But I think the idea is kinda sweet. Tacky, silly, and potentially offensive, but sweet. In the midst of all the bickering and threats and name calling, at least someone out there is trying to find a way to bring peace, love, understanding, and a much-needed sense of humor to the season. Too bad it's only happening on TV.

Michelle Cottle is a senior editor at TNR.
Edited to include link:
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=life&s=cottle121704
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 5,430 • Replies: 89
No top replies

 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 12:56 pm
I'm not a Christian. My Christmas celebrations are largely confined to reacting to other people being kind to me. I don't find the bustle of the season personally offensive.

But:

Foxfire quotes:

Quote:
A couple of carols sung on school grounds aren't going to lead to mandatory recitation of the Lord's Prayer in math class.


May I ask who is expected to sing these carols? High School Students meeting at the Flagpole? The Middle School Glee Club? Ms. Goodwill's Second Grade?

Who are the singers? Christians gathered together to praise the birth of their God or an assortment of children, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostis, et. al.

A beloved Christian festival should not be the reason to force any non-Christian child to deny any other religion. If there are Jewish students in the officially sponsored and trained school singing group, include Jewish festival songs. If there are Muslim students, Muslim songs should be included....and so ad infinitum

Of course Christmas carols on the school grounds are not going to lead to the Lord's Prayer in math class. All the same, if only one non-Christian child is made to feel excluded isn't this a sorry, shabby way to celebrate the birthday of a man/god who declared, "Suffer little children to come unto me for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

The public system belongs to all children, year round.

If carol singing is important to the families of these children, then the families of these children can create other opportunities for carol singing.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 01:05 pm
Noddy writes
Quote:
A beloved Christian festival should not be the reason to force any non-Christian child to deny any other religion. If there are Jewish students in the officially sponsored and trained school singing group, include Jewish festival songs. If there are Muslim students, Muslim songs should be included....and so ad infinitum


My sister was a director of music and public school choir director for most of three decades and enjoyed a number of choral state championships during her tenure. (I mean, she is GOOD!) But she was allowed to teach before political correctness chased anything Christian or Jewish out of the schools and thus her Christmas concerts--they were called Christmas concerts in those days included the best of secular and religious music appropriate for the season.

One day something occurred that brought to her attention that one of her students was Jewish. He had never said a word. She asked if there were any other Jewish students among her rather sizable choral group and there were several. All had been perfectly happy singing the Christian music in the program and the Christian students thoroughly enjoyed singing the Jewish songs she then included and the non-religious students enjoyed both. (She did ask if there were any other religions represented - none were.)

That's the way it should be everywhere I think. So in that I agree.

I have a harder time accepting an entire group being disappointed in not being have to have their favorite music in the repertoire however, because one or two in the group (or their parents) dislike it.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 01:23 pm
well it is kinda confusing, on the one hand we have peeps clamoring for a return to the spirit of christmas (I'm guessing the religious part about jesus birth and all that) vs the others who clamor for "goodwill to men" kinda secular stuff. On top of all that we have the "marketing of xmas" buy your love a miracle (diamond ring) countered with feed the homeless but remember the 3 wisemen, no babe left unswaddled, and then and THEN we have a commie pinko santa in a RED suit "giving" away presents. Damn, I love a parade.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 01:28 pm
Wanna sing carols? go to church.

Wanna learn something? go to school.

Why is this so tricky?
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 01:51 pm
Originally, the major Christian calendrical ritual was Easter (a rite of spring). Christmas did not become a major holiday Christian holiday until the 18th century. As it is a winter solstice ritual I suspect it's rise in prominence reflects the economic and political rise of Northern Europe.
In New England it was illegal to celebrate Christmas in the 17th century. The evangelical Protestant Puritans despised the celebration as a pagan residual propagated by a corrupt Roman Church. In the 18th century you would suffer serious social disapproval. celebrating the holiday. Celebration also had political overtone as it implied an acceptance of Anglican ritual and by extension Royalist sympathies In the first half of the 19th century celebration was considered gauche. Christmans did not become a major holiday in New England until after the American Civil War and it always had strong materialist overtones. So much for that "Old Time religion" with its simple celebration of Christian ideals.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 02:00 pm
My 1st wife was a devoted christian something or other and her family shunned I tell you raged about the freakin' catholics and their damned xmas celebration. However, the always put up the tree and the lights and tacky presents galore while continuing to rage about the damned catholics and their xmas crap (but didn't want anyone to think they were not good americans which is why they did the xmas tree and the "merry christmas" babble to everyone they encountered. So anyway, I'm guessing that xmas is a patriotic event rather than a religiousl one. (the capitalism part is pretty big too) Personally I like the eating part preferably at someone else's house so I can leave before the clean-up begins. As George Bush said, being a good patriot is spending that cash to buy lots of neat stuff.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 02:09 pm
Christmas is a commercial holiday by and large now. I don't see the harm in Christmas Carols being sung because they are beautiful songs...meaningful on a religious note to Christians enjoyable as secular tunes as well.

The Christians most loudly clamoring to make Christmas a religious holiday by and large are the ones who support bush and his wars. They can be philosophical about sending kids to die in a war, but want to save them in the womb no matter what. They emulate Christ who gave everyone inclusion in his love, but hate homosexuals.

I believe in God...I believe in Christ I think organized religious Christianity and most Chritsians however, are f*#ked in the head.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 02:20 pm
Acquiunk

I only can underline your response:
During the Reformation, most Christians (especially Protestants) considered Christmas a pagan celebration because it included nonreligious customs.
In England, Christmas was forbidden by Act of Parliament in 1644; the day was to be a fast and a market day; shops were compelled to be open; plum puddings and mince pies condemned as heathen.

And as said in the Catholic Encyclopeia: "Pagan customs centering round the January calends gravitated to Christmas."

Most (christian) Christmas songs, btw, have and had a quasi-liturgical position and function - e.g. they are still part of Catholic masses.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:19 pm
But what does that have to do with any harm created by people who do want to celebrate Christmas now in a 21st Century tradition?
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:30 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
But what does that have to do with any harm created by people who do want to celebrate Christmas now in a 21st Century tradition?


none at all IMO
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:55 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
But what does that have to do with any harm created by people who do want to celebrate Christmas now in a 21st Century tradition?


Hmm, just 4 years in the 21th century and something becomes a tradition in that time.


Well, in this case ...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:01 pm
Okay Walter, it was just easier to say 21st century because that's the point in time we're dealing with. We've had a good long tradition of Christmas carols however, and while I don't disputeyour and Acq's history lesson in any way, I would point out that it was not 100% universal that Christmas was outlawed in the colonies. There were pockets where it was celebrated. It was never forbidden on a national level; only in the more puritanical state-religion-minded locales. And yes, the hypocrisy of that is ironic as the Puritans themselves came to this country to achieve religious freedom and then promptly denied it to others.

But the fact is there is an element of celebrating Christmas now that is not corrupt or evil or greedy or unworthy. And frankly I think any person, young or old, who is squeamish about hearing religious lyrics in a carol or seeing a nativity scene or having a minorrah lighted in the town square has far more problems than anything any religion could possibly do to him or her.
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:13 pm
In Iraq there are a number of minority groups who seem very nervous about the possibility of tyranny by the majority.

I can't quote chapter and verse, but isn't there a line in the New Testament, "Inasmuch as ye have done this to the least of my brethern ye have done it unto me"?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:24 pm
You see, since I grew up and still live in a Catholic dominated part of our country, I have now problems with at all: all the Christmas carols sung here are sung in Catholic masses (and Protestant services) as well.

And of course, those carols are played here in the malls, too (but no Jingle Bells in churches).

I've no problem with it.


But I fully understand those, who rightly think that carols are part of a church service.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:35 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
It was never forbidden on a national level; only in the more puritanical state-religion-minded locales. And yes, the hypocrisy of that is ironic as the Puritans themselves came to this country to achieve religious freedom and then promptly denied it to others.


First of all the Puritans had no intention of granting religious liberty to anyone (other than themselves). They were a religious/political movement (very similar to what we have today in the US) who's goal was to reorder English society on evangelical Protestant principles. New England was set up as an experiment and model as to how that society should look and function. On those grounds they excluded everyone from Catholics to Quakers who did not meet their standards. The Puritans succeeded in the 1640's (English Civil War) in seizing control of the English Government and running it on Puritan principles until 1662 (the Protectorate) when it was finally over thrown by a population that had had enough (the Stuart Restoration). I do not know about you personally foxfyre, but many of the views you have voiced support for would fit comfortably into that Puritan ideology (in style if not completely in substance).
As for Christmas, the point I and I assume Walter were making was that Christmas was until the 18th century a minor and ambiguous Christian celebration. It is only in the last 200 years that it has risen to it's present prominence. The claims of the religious right that the banning of Christmas from public schools and places is a dastardly innovation of an anti-Christian elite is a false argument. It is Christmas, replacing Easter as the prominent Christian celebration, that is the innovation.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:45 pm
A strained argument Acquiunk Smile Two hundred years is plenty of time for cherished traditions to develop in a country that isn't a whole lot older than that. As for your history lesson, I don't disagree--I write that stuff as curriculum--but I don't see how it in the least negates my take on it. The fact is, who is hurt is the highschool chorus sings Handel's "Messiah" at a Christmas concert so long as it is sung as music or historical music and not taught from a perspective of faith? Who is harmed by the nativity scene on the courthouse lawn or the minorrah or any other religious symbol the townsfolk like to see there? It humanizes Christmas and makes it more than greed and tinsel and ulcers.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:46 pm
An European aside:

Luther was seriously against the catholic habit that St. Nicholas gave presents to the children (on December 6th).

So, he "invented" the Christkind ('Jesus child'), to focus the thoughts to Jesus' birth.
When the 'Christmas boom' started in the late 19th century, the Christkind suddenly became Catholic, whilst St. Nicholaus changed his name, date and religion, to become Father Christmas at December 25th and for Protestant children. (And this only, because Hoffmann von Fallersleben didn't write just the lyrics for the German national anthym but also "Tomorrow Father Christmas will come" ('Morgen kommt der Weihnachtsmann') in 1835.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:48 pm
LOL Walter. You should have seen the kids the Sunday I had the children's sermon at church and tried to teach the story of St. Nicholaus in historical perspective. They would have none of it. But then they wanted their wisemen calling at the manger too which was highly unlikely.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 04:55 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Hmm, just 4 years in the 21th century and something becomes a tradition in that time.

Well, in this case ...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/images/04xmas/014.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Is there room for Christmas anymore?:
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/25/2024 at 05:47:36