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Is there room for Christmas anymore?:

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:51 pm
Well I gave this my best shot Frank. And so far you guys refuse to answer my simplest question: when all things are equal, who should prevail? The Minority? Or the Majority? You keep building straw men and that isn't useful.

Why don't you just come right out and say you want the ability to control everybody and the majority will should be moot?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:54 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Well I gave this my best shot Frank. And so far you guys refuse to answer my simplest question: when all things are equal, who should prevail? The Minority? Or the Majority? You keep building straw men and that isn't useful.

Why don't you just come right out and say you want the ability to control everybody and the majority will should be moot?


I've answered that question over in the other thread...where you asked it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:55 pm
And I am very uncomfortable with a totally securlar, market driven Christmas Acquiunk. And I resent it when my children or my grandchild are denied some of the best parts of a cherished traditional holiday because a handful of narrow minded people wish to have it just their way. I fully support anyone not wishing to participate having the right to do so. I also fully support the majority having the right to do something special and good and wonderful and satisfying if they want to.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:56 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
But I told you I was uncomfortable, Foxfyre. And I wasn't weird and unique.

Should I doubt my own experience because of what you or Nimh want to believe is true?

OK, fair enough.

Wondering .. would you have felt uncomfortable also if the Christmas carols weren't, like, the canon everyone had to conform to - but just a part of a year-round mix of all kinds of songs, from different religions/cultures, depending on what feasts and holidays were going on?
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:57 pm
How is it controlling everyone if we agree to allow religion to be practiced freely in church and at home (and 24 hours a day on cable TV) but not in school, where not everyone shares the dominant religion?

This is what I fail to understand. I walk around town and Christmas is everywhere. Fine. But somehow you're the beleaguered person. I find this curious.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:58 pm
nimh wrote:
D'artagnan wrote:
But I told you I was uncomfortable, Foxfyre. And I wasn't weird and unique.

Should I doubt my own experience because of what you or Nimh want to believe is true?

OK, fair enough.

Wondering .. would you have felt uncomfortable also if the Christmas carols weren't, like, the canon everyone had to conform to - but just a part of a year-round mix of all kinds of songs, from different religions/cultures, depending on what feasts and holidays were going on?


I suppose an amalgam of songs would be fine. But this is the kind of hodge podge that makes no one happy, I suspect...
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:03 pm
No in fact if you had read the thread D, you would have seen that the suggestion was for everybody's traditions to be included, Christian, Jewish, secular, traditional, modern, etc. etc. etc. If that makes you uncomfortable I really think you should just stay home and let everybody else enjoy themselves.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:06 pm
Well, I haven't been to elementary school in a while, so I'll beg off.

And to all a good night!
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:08 pm
Well we were referring to a highschool concert in that context but the same principle applies to elementary students. But have a good night D.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:08 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
No in fact if you had read the thread D, you would have seen that the suggestion was for everybody's traditions to be included, Christian, Jewish, secular, traditional, modern, etc. etc. etc. If that makes you uncomfortable I really think you should just stay home and let everybody else enjoy themselves.


And are you comfortable with the ditty "There ain't no God...Religion is all a buncha cowchips"...or is that not appropriate for the people who want to do things special and good and wonderful and satisfying?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:12 pm
Quote:
But this is the kind of hodge podge that makes no one happy, I suspect...

I would say it could just be the kind of hodge podge that could make everyone happy. Everyone gets to do his/her thing and join the others in their thing! Who could be against that? Isn't that what being a community is all about? (Rather than effortfully hiding each and everyone's culture so as to avoid any remote chance of anyone feeling offended I mean?)

Well, for sure - I'm not that naive - I can think of two groups that would not be happy about it:

a) those who dont want any religion-related stuff whatsoever in school;
b) the bible-thumpers who want their kids to get to sing Christmas carols, but not partake, dear God, in anything remotely related to Hinduism, Islam or what not (of whom I'm afraid there's probably more).

Now I know about the whole "this country is hopelessly divided into redstaters and bluestaters" thing, but really - there must be enough levelheaded, relaxed people left in the middle to take this uptight fever pitch down a notch still?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:15 pm
I was in the market today and the clerk waiting on me asked "So, you all ready for xmas?" Well, being the kinda asshole I am I says to her "When I woke up this morning I said to myself 'self' I said, ' the first person that asks me today if I am all ready for xmas, I'm gonna shoot in the kneecap" then I sez to her "hey, but have a nice day"
she muttered something under her breath as I walked out, can't blame her for that.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 01:38 am
Quote:
20.12.2004

Targeting Santa

http://www.dw-world.com/dw/image/0,1587,1431294_6,00.jpg

Groups in Germany and Austria have launched campaigns protesting the commercialization of Christmas. The target of their ire is Santa, an American import who they say doesn't represent what the holiday is all about.

Bettina Schade says she doesn't have anything personal against Santa Claus. In fact, she likes a lot of things about today's celebrations of Christmas -- the lighted trees, the gold ornaments, the silver stars.

But all the material things, the hectic rush to buy gifts, and the ubiquity of the bearded man in the red suit are taking away from the core meaning of Christmas. She'd like to see things changed, or at least toned down a little.

"The Christian origins of Christmas, like the birth of Jesus, have receded into the background," she said. "It's becoming more and more a festival that is reduced to simply worldly gifts and to commerce."

She is part of a campaign called the Frankfurter Nicholas Initiative, founded by a Roman Catholic priest in Frankfurt, Eckhard Bieger. Alarmed by the growing commercialization of Christmas in Germany, he launched the initiative that's aimed at putting St. Nicholas, a fourth-century monk, back in the Christmas spotlight where he used to be.

It's an uphill battle, however, since St. Nicholas' successor, the American-inspired jolly old St. Nick, or Santa Claus, has been edging the miter-wearing historical figure out of the German Christmas landscape of late. German kids do set out their shoes on Dec. 6 for St. Nicholas to fill them with sweets, but that holiday now pales in comparison with Santa's sleigh-ride night.

http://www.dw-world.com/dw/image/0,1587,1431281_7,00.jpg
[size=8]Chocolate Santa dressed up at St. Nicholas[/size]

To counter this trend, the Frankfurt Initiative along with another Catholic organization, the Bonifatiuswerk, has launched pro-Nicholas campaign. They show kids how to turn chocolate Santas into chocolate Nicholas figures and have been handing out stickers in stores and at Christmas markets featuring a bar cutting across an image of Kriss Kringle. It proclaims the area a "Santa-Free Zone."

"Santa Claus is a creation of the advertising industry and Coca-Cola to further commercial interests," Bieger told Reuters.


Santa's origins

The image of Santa most known today -- fat, white bearded and in a red suit -- is indeed a creation of the Coca-Cola company, which was looking for a new figure to use in its advertising campaigns in the 1930s and 1940s.

http://www.dw-world.com/dw/image/0,1587,347675_7,00.jpg
Santa Claus, inspired by Coke

A Swedish-American artist, Haddon Sundblom, created the jolly, benevolent character for Coke based on a previous figure created for Harper's Weekly in the 19th century by Thomas Nast, a German immigrant to the United States.

For the small but vocal anti-Santa movement, which has also gained momentum in Austria, Santa Claus is a poor reflection of the original St. Nicholas, who is believed to have been a fourth-century bishop in Myra, in present-day Turkey. He had a reputation for generosity and kindness, which gave rise to legends of miracles that he performed for the poor and unhappy.

"St. Nicholas was a man who helped the poor, saved people who were unjustly condemned, freed prisoners," Schade said. "You could say he was a forerunner of Amnesty International. Santa is much less than that -- just about giving gifts."


True meaning

The church-affiliated groups believe focusing on St. Nicholas can remind people about the core values of Christmas, such as family, sharing and doing good for others. They feel the time of the year that should encourage people to be thoughtful and contemplative is being drowned out by Jingle Bells and ho ho ho.

http://www.dw-world.com/dw/image/0,1587,1431577_6,00.jpg

"What is the meaning of Christmas? The meaning of Christmas is, in the first place, not shopping," said Reverend Volker Faigle, a Lutheran pastor and representative of the Protestant church to the German government and the EU.

He said the Protestant church also did not hold any particular grudge against Santa, or the gift-giving he represents. It is just a matter of keeping what many see as the excesses of the Christmas season in check.

"Our shopping centers want to make money and they have a right to make money, we have no problem with that," he said. "But if you already start the season in September, people think Christmas is just about shopping, shopping, shopping. Then we think Christmas is misused."

The Protestant Church has started a program called "Christmas in December," selling things such as Advent calendars without the chocolates and cartoon figures. Church representatives even approached German retailers and marketers asking them to keep the Christmas overkill in check.


Crucial for sales

But according to the German retailing association, Christmas is a critical time for retailers: What some see as Santa surfeit, shop owners see as a lifeline.

From the looks of shops in Berlin, retailers have not held back when it comes to promoting Santa and gift-giving. That is perhaps understandable, since according to the HDE retailers' association, about 20 percent of annual sales are made in the last two months of the year.

http://www.dw-world.com/dw/image/0,1587,1428866_6,00.jpg
Christmas shoppers

"We didn't have a good year in 2004, but in December the mood has picked up," said Hubertus Pellengahr, HDE's spokesman. "Presents are being bought, people have finally found a little joy in buying again."

But talking to shoppers in front of one of Berlin's premier department stores, KaDeWe, it appears some holiday fatigue might be setting in.

"There are many good things that comes over from America, but this kitsch Christmas style is getting the upper hand," said Hella Wichman, 55, who was visiting Berlin from Hamburg and doing a little window shopping.

"There's too much of everything, too many lights, too much money spent, too much Santa," she said. "There is nothing thoughtful about Christmas anymore."

But jolly old Santa himself, talking to children amid glittering ornaments on KaDeWe's fifth floor, finds the groups who would like to lower his profile somewhat alarmist. He said there's room for both him and his predecessor St. Nicholas during the Yuletide season.


"Santa brings joy, and children grow up so fast anyway," he said. "Why not let them enjoy his magic for as long as they can?"
Source
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 02:02 am
Ironic isn't it Walter? The minority in your country want to eradicate Santa Claus. The minority in our country want to eradicate anything religious. We need to trade minority groups. Smile
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 02:09 am
:wink:
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 03:43 am
Walter....I'd prefer it if we traded majority groups. At least then, we'd be getting the better of the bargain.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 06:50 pm
Foxfyre, when the radical secularists march into your church and demand an end to the Christmas celebration, I'll be on your side, believe me. But as long as you insist on making me celebrate Christmas in school, I'll be very glad I belong to the ACLU.

Very glad...
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 07:32 pm
There's always room for Christmas!
Very Happy
Haul out the holly; Put up the tree before my spirit falls again.
Fill up the stocking, I may be rushing things, but deck the halls again now.
For we need a little Christmas Right this very minute,
Candles in the window, Carols at the spinet.
Yes, we need a little Christmas Right this very minute.
It hasn't snowed a single flurry, But Santa, dear, we're in a hurry;
So climb down the chimney; Put up the brightest string of lights I've ever seen.
Slice up the fruitcake; It's time we hung some tinsel on that evergreen bough.
For I've grown a little leaner, Grown a little colder,
Grown a little sadder, Grown a little older,
And I need a little angel Sitting on my shoulder,
Need a little Christmas now.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 07:56 pm
I love Christmas. I'm not a religious person, but I love it because it seems to bring people together and so much more. You get to watch the wonderful expressions on your childrens faces as they open their gifts. Listen to Christmas songs, look at the beautiful lights everywhere, decorate the tree with your family, and we can't forget the wonderful Christmas meal. Christmas just gives me a warm feeling.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Dec, 2004 08:01 pm
yeah, me and montana somewhere near the tree (in front of a nice fireplace on a bearskin rug (simulated bearskin) enjoying warm feelings Damn I love xmas. Could very well be a religious experience. (she got me a norelco shaver this year)
0 Replies
 
 

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