God vs. Allah, Us vs. Them

Well Frank then there are only 2 choices. Either this Universe was created or it all happened by chance.

Written over a period of about 1,600 years by 40 different authors, the book on which the Christian faith rests tells one story that begins with creation and concludes on the threshold of eternity. The integrity of its historical and geographical record is supported by archeology. The accuracy with which it has been copied and handed down to us has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran. Originating neither in the East nor the West, but in the Middle East--the cradle of civilization--the Bible continues to speak not only with spiritual power but with convincing prophetic accuracy.

Down through the ages, many have doubted the historical and geographical accuracy of the Bible. Yet modern archeologists have repeatedly unearthed evidence of the people, places, and cultures described in the Scriptures. Time after time, the descriptions in the biblical record have been shown to be more reliable than the speculations of scholars. The modern visitor to the museums and lands of the Bible cannot help but come away impressed with the real geographical and historical backdrop of the biblical text.

From the days of Moses, the Bible predicted events no one wanted to believe. Before Israel went into the Promised Land, Moses predicted that Israel would be unfaithful, that she would lose the land God was giving her, and that she would be dispersed throughout all the world, regathered, and then re-established ( (Deuteronomy 28-31). Central to Old Testament prophecy was the promise of a Messiah who would save God's people from their sins and eventually bring judgment and peace to the whole world.

Frank, all the scientists of our time (not Aristotle's) know the Universe as we know it had a beginning. This is science. BouncingUniverse, Protouniverse, InflationaryTheory, BubbleUniverse, InstantonTheory, whatever.

There's a Nickelodeon forum. Let me know if you need the URL.

The middle east is the "cradle of civilization" only to those who are willfully blinded by their pre-existent christian prejudices. In the Indus river valley, in the Yellow river valley, on the coastal plains of what are now Ecuador and Peru, on the central plateau of what is now Mexico, civilizations arose, some before, some contemporaneously to, and others after the rise of the Akkadian civilization in the valley of the Tigris and Eurphrates rivers. None of those other civilizations owed one whit of their development to the civilizations of the middle east. The text of the book known as the bible has been constantly revised throughout its history, and it is tatamount to an outright lie to suggest that it has been a case of any "accuracy with which it has been copied and handed down to us," although i do not contend that you intended to lie. It is also simply not true that the text "has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran." There is very good scholarly evidence that the Genesis stories were lifted, in somecase, wholesale and almost without revision, from the Gilgamesh epic. The oldest texts upon which the modern "bible" has been based date back much farther than 1600 years, by more than a millenium in most cases. The amount of revionism is simply stunning--at the least, thirteen "gospels" were in circulation in the first century of the current era, and the offending nine were deep-sixed as inimical to the direction in which the early "church fathers" wished to take the credulous--excuse me, the faithful. Apart from the ludicrous juxtaposition of judgment and peace in the final sentence, which gave me a chuckle, there is absolutely no merit in any of the personal fantasies which Micah has expressed here--and precious little truth, either, for that matter. I've been breaking my own rule about avoiding religious discussions this evening, but Micah really takes the cake--i couldn't pass up such opportunties handed out on a silver platter.

Lite reading on Gilgamesh

Thanks, Husker. You know, i lost the only copy of Gilgamesh which i ever owned, when i leant it to a man i knew who seemed a reasonable sort. I told him that it was possibly the basis of some of the stories in Genesis. When he returned it to me, he was in a towering rage, and tore it to pieces in front of me, and started ranting at me, ending with the accusation that i am an atheist . . . "just like, just like, that woman, whatever her name is." I replied: "Oh, you mean, Madeline Murray O'Hare? No, i'm a different sort of atheist altogether, but thanks for noticing." I've never hidden the fact that i'm atheist, so i'm at a loss to explain how he hadn't picked-up on it before that time.

Okay...I'll buy that.

But I have no goddam idea of which one it is -- and my guess is that you don't either.

Which is to say that it begins with a variation on "Once upon a time..." -- and ends with a variation on "...and they lived unhappily ever after."





Yes. It appears there actually was an Egypt... and a Rome ... and a Jeruselem.

So what?






Please. Spare us this nonsense.

Nobody I know "doubts" the "geographical accuracy of the Bible -- but lots of people I know are pretty sure the "history" of the early Hebrew people is probably closer to fiction than fact.


[/quote]From the days of Moses, the Bible predicted events no one wanted to believe. [/quote]

You should see Sister Alvarina who runs a store front in the lower Bronx. Now Sister Alvarina can predict events no one wants to believe.

Compared with Sister Alvarina, the biblical prophets were pikers.





I have already furnished you with a link to a site devoted to debunking the so-called prophesies -- which have been touted way past what they should be.

With all the respect in the world, Micah, this is snake oil you are peddling.

As note of interest, there are quite a few horribly obvious geographical errors in the "bahble"--for example, the Gaderene swine are supposed to have precipitated themselves into Lake Tiberius after Jee-zus cast out a demon, and put it into them (oh, my dog, i can't stand it!). The ancient site of Gaderes was 30 miles or more from Lake Tiberius--got to have been the most athletic swine in history. The text reads as though the narrator had witnessed the casting out, and the swine running off, and gives the distinct, and completely fallacious impression that Gaderes was right on the shores of Lake Tiberius. Of course, no one seems to have thought twice about Jee-zus destroying the livelihood of an otherwise unoffending swineherd on a whim, but, of course, the religious are notorious for ignoring glaring discrepancies such as that.

Sorry Defender, no dice.

I'll look at evolution to start with. Well, adaptation doesn't follow the blueprints of a perfect designer. Strong evidence that evolution, & not the command of any rational god, has built organisms lies with the imperfections recorded in our history of descent. Weird arrangements & funny solutions are evidence of evolution -- paths that a sensible God would never take but that a natural process, constrained by history, needs to follow.

Here's an example of order without design that I've used before. According to your statement, the formation of every single snowflake that's ever existed must be a discrete miracle & not a natural process at all, since snowflakes are much more "orderly" & contain more "information" than the vapor or droplets they're formed from. A much more likely explanation, however, is that the process is nothing miraculous & doesn't offend the thermodynamic sensibilities of nature.

And by the way, have you failed to notice all the disorder in the universe?

What are some of these disorders in the Universe that you are claiming Monger? I would really like to hear them.

Are you serious?

Ever heard of Murphy's Law? heh..

Entropy is a universal state function. We all experience the effects of it in our daily lives.

Ecosystems, civilizations, living things etc are all examples of dissipative systems - complex interlocked processes which take much more energy to build & maintain than they generate. These pockets of order are anomalies..islands in a vast ocean of chaos.

Defender, I asked you one simple question, which you failed to answer:

Did God make the universe out of nothing or something?

Care to give it another shot?

Once you've answered that, we can talk about chaos theory, the big bang, and how the evolution of order and complexity occurs without decreasing the entropy of a system.


If the universe was created, where do you think that the creator came from? If you think that it is unlikely that a universe such as this one could result from chance, how much less likely is it that a designer "just happened" to exist who "just happened" to have the knowledge and ability to design a universe?

micah, where do you get so much misinformation?

The Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments of most of the books of the Old Testament (except Esther) but none from the New (were you thinking of the Nag Hammadi scrolls?). There are multiple copies of many of the books, some of which vary from the canonical (Masoretic) Bible and agree more closely with the Greek Septuagint. Also included are previously unknown Psalms, alternate versions of books, apocryphal books, and writings of the Qumran community of Essenes.

As we would expect, much of the history in the Bible is more or less correct, but there are also inaccuracies. Why do you suppose God would get things wrong, or fail to correct his scribes?

It is pretty easy to get prophecies right when they are made retroactively. The gospel writers took verses out of context, revised them as needed, and added stories that "proved" Jesus had fulfilled them. Their target audience had no way of checking the accuracy of the tales.

The Jews did not expect their promised Messiah to save them from their sins, but from their enemies! They knew perfectly well that Jesus did not fulfill their prophecies and rejected him as a false prophet, just as God had told them to do.

Very obvious deduction there, but I've never heard it presented like that before. Well said, Terry; thanks.

I agree with Monger, Terry.

I use to use a variation of that argument often -- and have gotten away from it.

"So...you find it difficult to 'believe' that this complicated universe could simply exist without a Creator -- but you have no difficulty 'believing' in a Creator that is even more complicated!"

Glad to see it used -- and glad to see it acknowledged by Monger.

Careful-don't try to force logic out of the faithful. It could have dire consequences, including your own eternity in "the lake of fire". Or so I've been led to believe.

This thread's title reminds be of a landoverbaptist quiz...

Whose God is More Vicious?


..More Landover Baptist Bible quizzes

And what is the conclusion of all this...

Monger,
From what you have said, you did not show me 1 disorder in the universe.

Terry,
I say that God(creator) made the universe from nothing.