10
   

The Worst Thing Trump has Done.

 
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2017 07:43 am
Nazis are bad.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2017 07:47 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
These are actual Nazis.

I know. They still have the right to free speech though, and it is wrong for liberals to use violence to deny them the ability to speak out.

If those liberals had wished to oppose Nazism, instead of violently attacking people they should have made intelligent arguments against Nazism.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2017 07:58 am
@oralloy,
You are mixing up the two issues Oralloy.

Trump failed to emphatically condemn White Supremacy. (He did a tepid walk back, too little too late. This has nothing to do with whether White Supremacists have free speech, or if any violence against White Supremacists is a crime.

If Trump had said "Americans reject Nazism and White Supremacy. It is not right, it is is not Patriotic and it is not American". And had then Said "There is free speech in America, as much as Nazi's are wrong, they do have the right to protest. I call on Americans to refrain from violence".

He could have said both of those things. The problem was that he failed to reject Nazism.

If you are making that argument that only the Liberals are opposing Nazism... you might want to rethink that.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2017 08:57 am
@maxdancona,
(For the record.... this was an experiment to see what my groupies would down thumb. Wink ).
emmett grogan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Aug, 2017 12:34 pm
@maxdancona,
If its any consolation I voted you up for about 90% of the thread.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 04:32 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You are mixing up the two issues Oralloy.

I don't believe that there are two issues. I see this as another case of liberals calling people Nazis for disagreeing with them. To me this is just one more reason to stamp out liberalism.

To be clear, I agree that there were a lot of genuine Nazis at that protest. But the liberals are using it to make untrue accusations against Trump and Bannon.


maxdancona wrote:
Trump failed to emphatically condemn White Supremacy. (He did a tepid walk back, too little too late.

There was no requirement for him to condemn it. It is universally understood as bad to begin with.

It was a mistake for Trump to try to fulfill this imaginary requirement after a couple days of the Left whining at him for not doing so. He should have known that they would just keep on denouncing him no matter what he said.


maxdancona wrote:
This has nothing to do with whether White Supremacists have free speech, or if any violence against White Supremacists is a crime.

I disagree. To me, the moment those liberals decided to use violence to prevent Nazis from speaking, this stopped being about Nazism and started to be about how much liberals hate Free Speech.

I suspect that Trump has a view similar to the one that I hold.


maxdancona wrote:
If Trump had said "Americans reject Nazism and White Supremacy. It is not right, it is is not Patriotic and it is not American". And had then Said "There is free speech in America, as much as Nazi's are wrong, they do have the right to protest. I call on Americans to refrain from violence".

He could have said both of those things. The problem was that he failed to reject Nazism.

I don't see that as a problem. That Nazism is stupid and bad is a given. Why cloud the issue of the Left's violation of everyone's rights by stating facts that everyone already knows?

I say "everyone's rights" because while here they were violating the rights of Nazis specifically, liberals truly mean to deny our rights universally.


maxdancona wrote:
If you are making that argument that only the Liberals are opposing Nazism... you might want to rethink that.

That's not my argument. I'm arguing that only liberals hate Freedom of Speech.
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 05:32 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I'm arguing that only liberals hate Freedom of Speech.

That seems reductionist and over-simplistic. There are people on all sides who mouth support for "free speech" only to demand the silencing of views that hold abhorrent. The truth is, many people grow tepid when rights are extended to cover the extremes.

Another point, though. When "freedom of speech" is used as a defense for promoting a cause in an obviously provocative manner — wearing military garb festooned with swastikas and carrying clubs and firearms — it becomes more a matter of behavior than speech. Without the arms, shields, and general "in your face" attitude your argument might be stronger. But in this case it was more than "speech" which prompted the actions you find so objectionable. The white supremacists came there spoiling for a confrontation. They got one.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 06:49 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
That seems reductionist and over-simplistic.


You don't say.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 10:44 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
That seems reductionist and over-simplistic. There are people on all sides who mouth support for "free speech" only to demand the silencing of views that hold abhorrent. The truth is, many people grow tepid when rights are extended to cover the extremes.

True. But the liberals are the ones who are attacking the First Amendment in this case, so it is fair to direct the condemnation directly on them in this case.


hightor wrote:
Another point, though. When "freedom of speech" is used as a defense for promoting a cause in an obviously provocative manner — wearing military garb festooned with swastikas and carrying clubs and firearms — it becomes more a matter of behavior than speech. Without the arms, shields, and general "in your face" attitude your argument might be stronger.

Every bit of that counts as political speech.


hightor wrote:
But in this case it was more than "speech" which prompted the actions you find so objectionable. The white supremacists came there spoiling for a confrontation. They got one.

That does not in any way absolve the liberals for using violence to try to silence political speech.
0 Replies
 
Angelgz2
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 02:36 pm
Quote:
"Sad to see the history and culture of our great country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful statues and monuments," [Trump] tweeted, "You can't change history, but you can learn from it,"


That is the most foolish thing he did. He dug his own grave, unfortunately. I'm a conservative, but what he did this past weekend is beyond my comprehension. China has stopped symbolizing Mao Ze Dong. Russia has removed statues of Lenin and Stalin. German banned anything that symbolizes Hitler or Nazi. There's nothing "Historical" or "beautiful" about these hateful figures. These men were regarded as Gods back then, and statues were built for them. But they were evil and wrong and therefore, they should not be worshiped as Gods or heroes and it's only logical that their statues or monuments be removed.

I was hoping he could have push some good legislation through such as repealing sections of Obamacare and sections of Dodd-Frank. But as it stands now no one's gonna support anything he says anymore -- he's better off just resign...

Kolyo
 
  3  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 06:45 pm
@Angelgz2,
Angelgz2 wrote:

That is the most foolish thing he did. He dug his own grave, unfortunately. I'm a conservative, but what he did this past weekend is beyond my comprehension. China has stopped symbolizing Mao Ze Dong. Russia has removed statues of Lenin and Stalin. German banned anything that symbolizes Hitler or Nazi....


Good for you, Angel:
Trusting your own common sense instead of some boilerplate ideological script.

I'm more likely to give conservatives a listen when they show they can go against the grain once in a while.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 17 Aug, 2017 08:33 pm
@Angelgz2,
Angelgz2 wrote:
That is the most foolish thing he did. He dug his own grave, unfortunately. I'm a conservative, but what he did this past weekend is beyond my comprehension. China has stopped symbolizing Mao Ze Dong. Russia has removed statues of Lenin and Stalin. German banned anything that symbolizes Hitler or Nazi. There's nothing "Historical" or "beautiful" about these hateful figures. These men were regarded as Gods back then, and statues were built for them. But they were evil and wrong and therefore, they should not be worshiped as Gods or heroes and it's only logical that their statues or monuments be removed.

You might want to consider the difference between figures who are locally unpopular and figures who are locally popular.

This thing going on in the US is being imposed on the South by anti-South bigots.


Angelgz2 wrote:
I was hoping he could have push some good legislation through such as repealing sections of Obamacare and sections of Dodd-Frank. But as it stands now no one's gonna support anything he says anymore -- he's better off just resign...

If you're going to turn on a Republican just because liberals call him a Nazi you'll turn on all Republicans, because liberals always call people who disagree with them a Nazi.

Instead of surrendering to the liberals, we need to vote more Republicans into office in the midterm and primary the Republican traitors who keep attacking our president.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2017 03:14 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Nazis are bad.

Street fighting like the Weimar Republic is bad. Look where that ended. Somehow, coming to a rally ready for violence is just a slippery slope for society devolving.

The old adage, "the early bird catches the worm," is just antithetical to many these days. Regardless of how competent Trump is, or is not, I suspect human nature being what it is, there are considerable anti-Trumpists that hate not Trump, if their unconscious motivations be told, but resent a grandfather that made a fortune in the early 20th century building apartment buildings in Brooklyn, and then Trump's father continued the family business, and then Trump decided to build in Manhattan and utilize what he learned in college relative to finance. Yes, like the fictional Cartwrights of Bonanza, the early birds tend to catch the worm. Those who don't like that might often be sour grapists, in my opinion.

My premise is now almost accepted theory in some academic circles that we do not have free will (antithetical to the Christian faith), but all our feelings and actions are the result of our unconscious mind (brain). Most undereducated (including myself) find such counter intuitive thinking anathema. So, much for college degrees from the 1970's.
0 Replies
 
cameronleon
 
  0  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2017 08:40 pm
The worst thing Trump has done is to pardon Hillary Clinton at the beginning of his administration.

Too bad.
emmett grogan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2017 07:02 am
@cameronleon,
A non existent pardon for non existent crimes means all that much to you?
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2017 07:20 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
over-simplistic

Is there an acceptable level of simplisticness?
centrox
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2017 07:52 am
@centrox,
centrox wrote:

izzythepush wrote:
over-simplistic

Is there an acceptable level of simplisticness?

That's meant for Hightor.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2017 08:53 am
@centrox,
So I'm not allowed to answer then? I would say one that helps people to understand while still remaining credible.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 29 Aug, 2017 12:37 pm
@Angelgz2,
You are correct that it may have been the most politically foolish thing he has done, but what was really so horrible about it?

He did uncategorically condemn white supremacists but that wasn't good enough for the Resistance.

He's quite an imperfect vessel for the conservative movement, and I would much prefer we had someone else, but do you imagine that any would be accepted by the Left?

Quote:
...no one's gonna support anything he says anymore


Not true
centrox
 
  3  
Reply Tue 29 Aug, 2017 01:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
He did uncategorically condemn white supremacists

Perhaps that's the trouble, that he didn't categorically condemn them.
0 Replies
 
 

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