6
   

White Women vs Free Speech: And Google is going to get sued.

 
 
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 10:19 am
@maxdancona,
My goal is " not to root out 'sexism'"--as you have erroneously suggested--it is to have you finally explain why you titled this thread "White Women vs Free Speech"--a title that seems to make no sense in terms of the topic.
Surely you can offer a rational explanation for that choice of words, can't you? Or are you too cowardly to be really honest about your choice?
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 10:27 am
@firefly,
Are you asking for an honest discussion where you will be open to a different perspective? I can answer your question... but I have no interest in facing an Inquisition. Whether or not you think I am a "sexist" is irrelevant to the question of whether the points I am making are valid.

It seems like your driving purpose on the past few pages is to convict me of sexism. In truth, this charge is irrelevant... it is an ad hominem. Ideological bubbles are maintained when you can convince yourself that everyone outside is a "sexist" or a "socialist".
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 10:37 am
@firefly,
Max is anything but honest. His duplicity has been pointed out another thread. This post I made on that thread sums up his character.

https://able2know.org/topic/405914-1#post-6484005

He must have incredibly, (but justified,) low self esteem to need to tell lies like that.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 10:38 am
@izzythepush,
Actually Izzy, it is not me who is following you from thread to thread. You seem obsessed with me, like I am your White Whale of misogyny.

Find yourself a new woman, it will help.
jespah
 
  6  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 10:51 am
I would suggest that anyone having trouble using the Ignore function of this site contact the Help Desk. Thank you.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 10:56 am
@jespah,
Thank you Jespah,

I would be happy to ignore Izzy... but when he shows up on thread specifically to make personal attacks, it is hard to ignore. And that is exactly what he is doing. He is following me around from thread to thread.

I have been conscientiously reporting each one (I believe you requested that we do that).

It would be nice if there was a more effective way to resolve this problem.






0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 10:57 am
@maxdancona,
So, you can't honestly explain why, or how, you chose the title of this thread--"White Women vs Free Speech"?

And you believe that being asked to explain it--simply because it seems to make no sense in terms of the topic--is an attempt to convict you of sexism?

Any more lame brain excuses?

Good grief, what a hypocritical dissembler you are.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:01 am
@firefly,
Quote:
So, you can't honestly explain why, or how, you chose the title of this thread--"White Women vs Free Speech"?


Of course I can. I am just not willing to play along with your little Inquisition. I am here to discuss the relevant issues concerning the Google memo. I am not willing to play defendant to whatever charges you want bring against me.

Let's just assume that it is a given that I am "hypocritical", "sexist" and whatever other adjective you want to assign to me personally. I don't work for Google, I didn't write the memo, I didn't have any say on the firing. What you think of me personally is irrelevant. If the answer to your question is "I chose the title because I am a hypocritical sexist", that doesn't change anything about the question of whether the memo written at Google justified this guy being fired.

So what?
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:12 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There is valid scientific research, being done by reputable scientists, that show statistically significant difference in cognitive abilities between men and women (that is cross-cultural). There is peer reviewed research. Neuroscience is not my expertise, but my impression is that gender differences in cognition are commonly accepted by science.

It is more accurate to say that apparent gender differences in cognition are more commonly questioned by reputable scientists. And that position is summed up by the American Psychological Association.
Quote:

Think Again: Men and Women Share Cognitive Skills

Psychologists have gathered solid evidence that boys and girls or men and women differ in very few significant ways.

Research debunks myths about cognitive difference.

Findings

Are boys better at math? Are girls better at language? Is aptitude or culture the reason that fewer women than men work as scientists and engineers? Psychologists have gathered solid evidence that when it comes to how — and how well — we think, males and females differ in very few but significant ways.

The evidence has piled up for years. In 1990, Janet Shibley Hyde, PhD, a psychologist at the University of Wisconsin, and colleagues published a groundbreaking meta-analysis that compiled data from 100 different studies of math performance. Synthesizing data collected on more than 3 million participants between 1967 and 1987, the researchers found no large overall differences between boys and girls in math performance. Girls were slightly better at computation in elementary and middle school. In high school, boys showed a slight edge in problem solving, possibly because they took more science classes that emphasized those skills. But boys and girls understood math concepts equally well and any gender differences actually narrowed over the years, belying the notion of a fixed or biological differentiating factor.

As for verbal ability, in 1988, Hyde and colleagues reported that data from 165 studies revealed a female advantage so slight as to be meaningless, despite previous assertions that girls are more verbally adept. What's more, the authors found no evidence of substantial gender differences in any component of verbal processing.

In a 2005 report, Hyde reviewed 46 different meta-analyses on sex differences, not only in cognition but also communication style, social and personality variables, motor behaviors and moral reasoning. In half the studies, sex differences were small; in another third they were virtually nonexistent.

Also in 2005, Elizabeth Spelke, PhD, a psychologist at Harvard University, and colleagues reviewed 111 studies and concluded that gender differences in math and science ability have a genetic basis in cognitive systems that emerge in early childhood. Nevertheless, the studies suggested that men and women on the whole possess an equal aptitude for math and science. In fact, boy and girl infants were found to perform equally well as young as 6 months on tasks that underlie mathematics abilities.

Despite such evidence, questions of gender differences have persisted, in part because men still outnumber women in science and math careers. In 2007, Diane Halpern, PhD, and colleagues including Hyde published a consensus statement regarding that disparity. Indeed, studies suggest that women tend to score slightly higher than men on verbal abilities, while men tend to have a slight edge when it comes to visuospatial skills, the researchers report. However, biology is only a small part of the explanation. The researchers conclude that early experience, educational policies and culture also strongly affect success in math and science.

Other studies suggest that when it comes to math, girls and boys are similarly capable. A 2008 analysis by Hyde and colleagues reported that in children from grades two to 11, there was no gender difference for math skills. And in 2009, Hyde and Janet Mertz, PhD, reported that while more boys than girls score at the highest levels in mathematics, that gender gap has been closing over time. In fact, they reported that the gap is smaller in countries with greater gender equality, suggesting that gender differences in math achievement are largely due to cultural and environmental factors.

Significance

The research suggests that perceived or actual differences in cognitive performance between males and females are most likely the result of social and cultural factors.that. For example, where girls and boys have differed on tests, researchers believe social context plays a significant role. Spelke believes that differences in career choices are due not to differing abilities but to cultural factors, such as subtle but pervasive gender expectations that kick in during high school and college.

In a 1999 study, Steven Spencer and colleagues explored gender differences among men and women who had a strong math background. They found that merely telling women that a math test had previously shown gender differences hurt their performance. The researchers gave a math test to men and women after telling half the women that the test had shown gender differences, and telling the rest that it found none. Women who expected gender differences did significantly worse than men. Those who were told there was no gender disparity performed equal to men.

Anxiety may be another mechanism explaining gender differences in math performance. A 2014 study by researchers at Boston College found that women had greater anxiety during a math test, which taxed their working memory and led them to underperform on the test. Teaching girls strategies to manage that anxiety could be one useful means to help to close the gender gap in math achievement, the researchers suggest.

Practical Application

If males and females were truly understood to be intellectual equals, things might change in schools, colleges and universities, industry and the workplace in general. As Hyde and her colleagues noted in 1990, "Where gender differences do exist, they are in critical areas. Problem solving is critical for success in many mathematics-related fields, such as engineering and physics." They believe that well before high school, children should be taught essential problem-solving skills in conjunction with computation. The researchers also point to the quantitative portion of the Scholastic Aptitude Test, which may tap problem-solving skills that favor boys. The resulting scores are used in college admissions and scholarship decisions. Scientifically unsound gender stereotyping not only costs individuals, but society as a whole.

Cited Research and Further Reading

Ganley, C.M., and Vasilyeva, M. (2014). The role of anxiety and working memory in gender differences in mathematics. Journal of Educational Psychology 106 (1), 105-120.

Halpern, D.F., Benbow, C.P., Geary, D.C., Gur, R.C., Hyde, J.S., and Gernsbacher, M.A. (2007). The science of sex differences in science and mathematics. Psychological Science in the Public Interest 8 (1), 1-51.

Hyde, J. S., & Linn, M. C. (1988). Gender differences in verbal ability: A meta- analysis. Psychological Bulletin, 104 , 53-69.

Hyde, J.S., Fennema, E., & Lamon, S. (1990). Gender differences in mathematics performance: A meta-analysis. Psychological Bulletin, 107 , 139-155.

Hyde, J.S. (2005) The gender similarities hypothesis. American Psychologist, 60 (6), 581-592.

Hyde, J.S., Lindberg, S.M., Linn, M.C., Ellis, A.B., and Williams, C.C. (2008) Gender similarities characterize math performance. Science 321 , 494-495.

Hyde, J.S. and Mertz, J.E. (2009). Gender, culture and mathematics performance. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 106 (22), 8801-8807.

Spelke, Elizabeth S. (2005). Sex differences in intrinsic aptitude for mathematics and science?: A critical review. American Psychologist, 60 (9), 950-958.

Spencer, S.J., Steele, C.M., & Quinn, D.M. (1999) Stereotype threat and women's math performance. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, 35 , 4-28.

American Psychological Association, August 2014

http://www.apa.org/action/resources/research-in-action/share.aspx


maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:20 am
@firefly,
You are cherry picking articles to support your ideological position. Please refer to the "Ideological Echo Chamber" Thread. Yes, you can find lots of articals saying that there are no differences between boys and girls... that is what everyone wants to hear.

What would I have to do to convince you that the facts don't support this ideological belief?

If I can give you... let's say... 3 peer reviewed articles on cognitive differences between men and women, will you admit I have a point? I am talking about actual scientific articles by respectable scientists in reputable peer reviewed journals. Will you find a reason to reject every one of them?

Just to start... here is an article on Cognitive gender difference from the National Institute of Health. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4129348/

There is a big difference between scientifically correct and politically correct.

You get to scientifically correct by looking at the studies and evidence to form your conclusions. You get to politically correct by starting with your conclusions, and then googling for articles that support them. You could honestly look at the studies and evidence for yourself, it would mean setting aside your pre-existing beliefs.

Again, this is not a very important part of my argument. I am arguing for freedom of expression... not for any scientific principle.
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:29 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I am here to discuss the relevant issues concerning the Google memo.

So, are you saying that your choice of title for this thread is unrelated to any relevant issues concerning the Google memo?
Quote:
I am just not willing to play along with your little Inquisition.

Why is it a "Little Inquisition" to be asked to explain your own, somewhat baffling, title for this thread?

You just can't be honest about your own relevant issues concerning this topic, can you.

The ideological bubble you are trapped in apparently doesn't include honest discourse.
ossobucotemp
 
  3  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:31 am
I was rereading and realize I maligned DrewDad by mistake... https://able2know.org/topic/404870-7#post-6482745

The comment re my not being in a bubble or and idealogue was meant for Max.., not DDad.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:33 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Why is it a "Little Inquisition" to be asked to explain your own, somewhat baffling, title for this thread?


If your goal is to convict me of being a "sexist", than it is an Inquisition. It is irrelevant to the discussion whether I deserve to be tarred with the "sexist" label or not.

If your goal is an interesting discussion.. then I would indulge you.

But you seem to be on a quest to show that disagreement equals "sexism". I choose not to indulge you on that.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:34 am
@ossobucotemp,
So you meant to malign Max then... how nice! I am glad you cleared that up.

It isn't a good thing to malign someone on your own side. Actually, I don't think that maligning a person is every a good thing in a debate.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:35 am
@maxdancona,
"I want a free exchange of ideas, except when I am challenged on my own actions. I could tell you, but I won't, because, um, you're not able to accept the wisdom which I oh, so generously, would bestow upon you."

You could just say "because reasons," you know?

"I won't explain myself because reasons."
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:40 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Just to start... here is an article on Cognitive gender difference from the National Institute of Health. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4129348/

Um, you do realize that this article completely undermines what-his-face's little manifesto, right? The one you've been so vigorously defending as based in science? Which itself had no actual scientific references?

Quote:
Conclusion: Male cognitive functions were comparable to female preovulatory phase cognitive functions. However, females, during postovulatory phase of their cycle, may have advantages in executive tasks (Stroop test) and disadvantages in attentional tasks (VRT), as compared to males.


I get that you want to stir the **** and get everyone in a tizzy, but again, you're just really bad at it.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:43 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Um, you do realize that this article completely undermines what-his-face's little manifesto, right?


I am not defending the "manifesto". I said clearly that the actual science doesn't support this guys memo. You are so eager to discredit me as a person, that you can't accept when I agree with you. I have been reluctantly pulled into this science tangent (I don't think it is very relevant).

There have been many points raised in this discussion. On some of them we agree.

The real issue is whether this memo warranted this guy being fired. The science has nothing to do with this...

Engineer said it best, it is a matter of whether this is "freedom of expression" or a "gross violation of his employment contract".
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:43 am
@maxdancona,
Being sexist is not a crime. Kinda deplorable, ya know? But not a crime.

And no one has to "convict" you of it.

It's your thread. If you find the title indefensible, nobody will argue otherwise.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:46 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
I get that you want to stir the **** and get everyone in a tizzy, but again, you're just really bad at it.


That is not my intent... but I do seem to have a knack for getting you you into a tizzy.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Mon 14 Aug, 2017 11:54 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are cherry picking articles to support your ideological position. Please refer to the "Ideological Echo Chamber" Thread. Yes, you can find lots of articals saying that there are no differences between boys and girls... that is what everyone wants to hear.

What would I have to do to convince you that the facts don't support this ideological belief?

Explain, in detail, where the research summary by the American Psychological Association http://www.apa.org/action/resources/research-in-action/share.aspx, which I previously posted, fails to make a cogent, well-reasoned and researched, explanation for their conclusion that research debunks myths about cognitive difference.

As for the link you posted, about gender differences in medical students, did you even notice this statement in that article?
Quote:
The major enigma is whether males or females perform better in various cognitive tasks. The reports were found to be contradictory.

That hardly suggests that gender differences in cognition have been clearly established. You do know what contradictory means, don't you?
Quote:
You get to scientifically correct by looking at the studies and evidence to form your conclusions.

And that's exactly what the American Psychological Association did in the article I posted. And they represent the profession of psychology in the USA--the profession that has always been at the forefront of cognitive research. They clearly don't want research in this area to be misinterpreted or misused.


 

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