Evolution - Who wants to KNOW?

That's not just a little bit wrong; that's REAL wrong.

That's basically saying that there are things too complicated for man to build or construct but, if you simply wait long enough, they will sort of come together out of raw materials, simply via random occurrances.

In real life, things do not work that way. If something is too complicated for man to build, it will not build itself by chance.

Not necessarily. We cant build a planets and stars but they can build themselves by chance. I said man made evolution may not be as effective because we don't know enough about it to synthesize it.

i read your first two links Gunga and the sites don't dispove TO so much as they point out a bias which obviously there is. Just as True origins is biased against evolution. I know TalkOrigins shows deception by omission I dont trueorigins tellign me so .



TrueOrigins goes into a tirade about some implication that isnt there lo.
"that creationists deny the fact of speciation and are thus "ignorant". "
They quote ignorant almost as if it were actually used. But it never was. Hmmm....
"Why do they make false accusations against creationists,"
But they never do. Hmmm....

"However, TO does not get to the core of the matter and leads its readers to the notion that the origins controversy is one of science versus religion"
Really?
how does
"Speciation has been observed, both in the laboratory and in nature." = Religion vs Science
I dont know and frankly I don't think any one does.
Perhaps TalkOrigin is deception by omission but TrueOrigin is deception by addition which is far more dangerous.

Well said El-D,

And while creationists rant on with their hysterical blindness to evolution, those of us with a clearer grip on reality are actually getting very close to synthesizing the process. The Avida Program is so close at this point that it's being considered an actual evolving system instead of just a model of an evolving system.

The deep egotistical fear that creationists have about what evolution tells them about who they are, will not change the way the world actually works. Despite unsupported comments to the contrary, we have artificially forced *speciation in fruit flies, we observe natural evolutionary processes in medicine every day, and we continue to find a very clear history of evolution buried in the rocks at our feet. Evolution has always been here, it always will be, and no amount of legislation or denial from people who fear it is going to change that fact.

*References:

Korol, A. et al., 2000. Nonrandom mating in Drosophila melanogaster laboratory populations derived from closely adjacent ecologically contrasting slopes at "Evolution Canyon." Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA 97: 12637-12642. See also Schneider, C. J., 2000. Natural selection and speciation. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA 97: 12398-12399.

Wheeler, M. R., 1987. Drosophilidae. In: Agriculture Canada, Manual of Nearctic Diptera, vol. 2, Hull, Quebec: Canadian Government Publishing Centre. pg. 1011.

gunga unfortunately, merely cuts and pastes without displaying any understanding of his quotes .
A fruitt fly can be used to map the effective genes by muttation/response studies. Noone in mainline sscience is trying to make new species ala Lamarckian inheritance of acquired characteristics.

In the 1800s and until Neo Darwinian thought was declining in the 1970s, a neo Lamarkian and Lysenko would have been given time on the podium. Today, to have a "Creationist Seminar" and have reputable scientists attend for anything but laughs is, in itself, laughable

Neo Darwinianist thought is pretty much dead as Goldschmidt , understanding of the genome has stomped it flat.My suggestionis that you spend more time on some honest science research data where the growing data from molcular biology and Paleo has defended Darwin's gradualism tto degrees that even he couldnt imagine (I know I use that phrase a lot, but its become so true that there is a real process afoot to declare evolution by nattural selecttion a LAW of science). now wouldnt that frostt your shorts. Not maany people pay atttenttion to the Craeationists. he only reaon I spend time is so I caan learn mor about the techniques that school board proponents would engage in ttheir arguments

Early understanding of macroevolution(evolution at taxa higher than the species level) had been fairly well understood by paleontology for years, yes there are addiional gaps and saltation (punctuated equilibrium) was invented tto explain his. However, Recent detailed sampling within successive strata in he Devonian extinctions has shown tha species succession and macro evolutionwas seen in multiple genii of trilobites of the marine Devonian.
Recent discoveries in molecular biology level have shown tthat distant genera , families, and orders all share significan (99+%) of same DNA. hese are non interbreeding orders of living animals , all sharing the same bar code. As Maayr statteed, "to preserve the unbroken continuity b eettween macro and micro evolution, it is merely necesary tto show that differinf "types" are meerely tthe end members in a continuous series of evolving populations"
I know your arguments are glommed from the Creationist "literature" aand they always fail o discuss tthe smooth transitions in very similar genomes seen in genomes of widely differing genera, .

Ive never seen a businessman in the resource market put hard money down on an oil field speculation wherin specific foraminiferan sequences were no in proper eevolutionary sequencees in tthe Eocene of tthe Gulf of Mexico. In other words, if evolution is incorrect, how come the predictions made through it --work?

gunga, why dont you question your Creationist leader as to why there is no original research into their points of intertwined science and religious beliefs? Are you afraid youll find none? Also, I go a big kick outt of tth "mutistrate" fossils.

Same here.

Hey, how's the snow out in Pennsylvania Farmerman? Are you getting dumped on? It's starting in New Hampshire now and we're supposed to get almost two feet of it before tomorrow morning. The South coast of Mass is supposed to get over two feet, with blizzard conditions leading to monster snow drifts.

Rossborn-our snow came and went early.We got about 8 in. powdery snow and I spent a lot of time bringing firewood up to the porch and closing off gates to distant pastures. Its difficult to see the sheep in distant pastures when everythings white.

Were supposed to get high wind and drifting. My biggest field sits on the Northwest of the house and it has a lot of "fetch" so were going to get drifts in the lane and up to the porch. You guys will get it worse, I see that 2 storms have sorta merged and are locking on New England. Keep your snorkel up.


I cannot believe that the "polystrate trees" issue is even being discussed anymore. After the field visits to the New Jersey and Virginia buried coastal pine forests in a Geo society program for creation and Young Earth proponents and including the dune buried forests of Delaaware and North Carolina were stipulated as "local" events and the Creationists backed off their claims for a "flood" buried forest based upon stratigraphic analyses, they quit trying to bring his issue up. Its alot like the human footprint in the dino beds of Texas and gungas" dinosnack" foto of a few weeks ago.
The Creationist debators in the schoool hearings NEVER bring up the fact that there is much fakery going on. Thy know we would search out the sources and visit the sites if needed.

As the National Geographic, in its recent cover article stated emphatically "Yep, Darwin got it right" David Quammen is a popular science writer but he had the help of a lot of good researchers

There were always reasonable, uncomplicated answers to these Creationist pronouncements and "discoveries"

Since you clearly refuse to abide by the TOS and since you seem to be above the rules here, I'm outta this discussion.

well, prove me wrong aand Ill apologize. The TOS is silent on how one should receive "cut and paste" comments that are delivered with conviction and authority.
Ive just commented on your "polystrate trees" from my own experience not a web site and you seem to take offense at being called out on mere facts. Others have reminded you of your obvious use of prepackaged "biblical Creationist " thinking.
Ive searched a few of your lines that werent footnoted and they too came up at some of these aforementioned sites. im only discussing data here, Im not planting anything from anyone else unless I give credit.

Farmerman, your place sounds really interesting. It must be beautiful with the fresh snow.

We're getting buried here in NH. I've got about a foot of new fluffy snow on the deck already, and it's supposed to keep coming until tomorrow afternoon.

I appreciate this method of sharing information. There are too many "group think" websites on both sides of any issue.

many times , Ill just type a few lines of someones post into google and BAAM the entire article appears. I usually look at the site attributes and, usually, the site sponsor is someone with whom we are quite familiar. It helps to hear their arguments in public forums like this.
L:ike your Popper post, its always good to predigest some POV before letting it out there.

Rosborne-happy digging

Ugh, I'm just starting now. The snow stopped at noon, and we seem to have about 20" base, with 3 to 5 foot drifts. The driveway is about 30 yards long, so it's gonna be a tough dig. I have a snowblower, but it's not an industrial unit, and this snow may be too much for it... I guess I'll find out.

Back later...

rosborne,

i hope you survived digging out of the snow. i think only one storm system passed through Chicago before heading east. saturday morning we had about 12 inches. then, heavy winds blew the snow everywhere. i had parked my car on the street, it got buried from snow drifts and city snow-plow trucks.

farmerman probably understated the snow in pennsylvania out of concern for the NFL games going on out there.

well, one out of two aint bad. The Pats are gonna be tough to beat, even as an Eagles fan, I have to face reality

Useless propaganda! What does it matter WHO presents the Science Fiction? They're ALL in on the hoodwinking.
Quote as many evolutionists as you like, of course they're all going to say that it's a fact - that's what they believe.

oops

So do budgies without teeth!

I had my computer on and my brother jumped in and left that remark, it wasn't me.

I apologize, they tease me about the time I spend on here.

I'm going to retaliate, his ass is grass.

The little sprite - there must be a touch of leprechaun in him!